Three Women, Three Stories of Service

This episode, "GSA Does That!?" celebrates Women's History Month by featuring three accomplished women from the General Services Administration: Charlotte Phelan, Erin Holcomb, and Zane Selkirk. They discuss their experiences, challenges, and successes as women in various roles within the federal workplace. Topics include career paths, mentoring, networking, and advice for women interested in federal service. This episode offers a unique perspective while giving listeners a glimpse into the rewarding careers of civil servants.

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Are you looking for more information related to this episode? The links below contain helpful information to help you continue the story on your own.

• Careers at GSA
• Hiring The Future Workforce Podcast
• Technology Modernization Fund Podcast
• Federal Architecture 101 Podcast

"GSA Does That!?" is the U.S. General Services Administration's first agency-wide podcast, offering listeners an inside look into how GSA and its partners benefit the American people. Hosted by Rob Trubia, the podcast features interviews with GSA leaders, experts, partners, and customers, covering topics such as federal real estate, acquisitions, and technology. The title reflects many's surprise at the scope of GSA's impact. At the same time, the artwork pays homage to President Harry S. Truman, who established GSA in 1949 to improve government efficiency and save taxpayer money. Whether you're a policy wonk or just curious about government operations, you can join the listener community.

For more information about the show visit, gsa.gov/podcast.

Transcript

Rob Trubia
Well, welcome to GSA Does That!? the podcast that uncovers the stories behind the federal agency delivering effective and efficient government. I'm your host Rob Trubia. And in this episode, we celebrate Women's History Month. We're speaking with three very interesting, accomplished and talented women from GSA, Charlotte Phelan, Erin Holcombe, and Zane Selkirk. These women come from varied roles and backgrounds and offer insights on navigating the federal workplace as a woman.

They'll discuss their unique challenges. What led them to their careers with GSA, their views on mentoring and networking, and advice for women considering federal service. This episode is a bit different from our usual approach and I think you'll absolutely enjoy every minute. And remember, this podcast is available on all major platforms. So please be sure to subscribe. For more information about this episode and others, visit us online.

Well, hi Charlotte. Thank you so much for taking the time to be with us on the podcast. I would love to hear your story about how you ended up working in government and what led you to your current position.

Charlotte Phelan
Rob. So I'm a dinosaur. I've been around forever. I started working for the government as an active duty sailor in the Navy, and I did eight years of active duty service and never really left working for the Navy. I did some time as a defense contractor supporting the Navy and then pivoted and took a federal job as a Navy civilian still working for the Navy. About six, seven years ago, I had an opportunity to take a job again still for the Navy in the Pentagon, and I did.

And so my family and I moved up to we got a house in Alexandria working at the Pentagon, absolutely loved it. But more than I loved working at the Pentagon, I fell in love with D.C., I, I was a tourist in the city that I was living in. And I just soaked it  in. I love the idea of working closely to where the decisions were made within our government.

And so when a job came open with GSA, which in my opinion is a destination agency, one of the best places that you can work in the federal government I applied, went through a pretty rigorous interview process and was selected initially working as the Assistant commissioner for the Office of Travel, Transportation and Logistics, and then two years ago was asked to take the role of the Assistant Commissioner for the Office of Strategy and Innovation within FAS[j], and I've been there almost two years.

Rob Trubia
That is an incredible journey and I am also curious, how did you learn about the GSA opportunity fast forwarding many years, but how did you learn about the opportunity?

Charlotte Phelan
So I worked with GSA when I was working for the Navy. We use GSA, the Federal Acquisition Service for are a huge part of our contracting. So I was familiar with the service that the Federal Acquisition Service provided to the rest of the federal government, and I was very impressed with it. And Emily Murphy was the administrator at the time that I joined the agency, and I had listened to an interview that she had given.

And it it made me more curious about GSA. And I really started to investigate the agency what what their role was in the federal government. You know, both the PBS side and the federal acquisition side. And when there was a job available, I just thought that I would like to work here and went ahead and applied for it.

Rob Trubia
And you described the GSA as sort of a destination destination agency. What do you mean by that?

Charlotte Phelan
It it is. So when I was doing my job search and did a lot of research and GSA just got really positive feedback. And if you do some searches on the Internet, there is just a lot of very positive press out there about GSA and the mission that we fulfill. We're kind of that connective tissue in many in many regards for the rest of the government.

And and it made me very curious about working here. And I have to say, I've not been disappointed. It's a great place to work.

Rob Trubia
And if you described what you do to friends and family, you know, your cousin, somebody you got a couple of minutes with, what do you tell them that you do for GSA?

Charlotte Phelan
What I do for GSA is I'm in an integrator role within within the FAS part of GSA. And we provide a lot of the strategies, so help documenting what is the strategic vision for FAS. We do the systems modernization. So those IT tools that the rest of the FAS uses to do their mission, we're in the background improving those tools, modernizing those tools and making them available and then I also do a lot of the workforce transformation initiatives within FAS.[k]

So how do we consistently recruit quality employees? What is their onboarding within FAS look like? How do we ensure that they're getting adequate training and and are really able to immerse themselves quickly and effectively in the mission that is FAS and be contributing members?

Rob Trubia
And you're right now doing that position. But as you got to that position and even even so, even though you're a senior leader, I'm curious about maybe what challenges that you've faced and maybe how you've navigated them, maybe particularly as a woman.

Charlotte Phelan
So when I came out of the military and and took a civilian job, I found the challenges were different because there was still the glass ceiling for women in industry. There was still a inequality for mothers, you know, women who wanted to have families. You were treated like you weren't as important or as needed as your male counterpart who wasn't taking paternity leave.

You know, you were on maternity leave and therefore you were more expendable. And culturally, I think that has evolved a lot. But at the time where I was in my twenties having my children, that was a tough experience to go through. I think there was still a lot of just straight up sexism going on in the eighties and nineties in the workplace.

I, I did raise up through the ranks pretty well in my career, but I think that culturally it was very different than it is now for women. You were always overcoming some obstacle. I'm not sure that that's necessarily the case as strongly anymore. I'm kind of thankful to have been part of maybe helping break through that for the next generation.

And I know that my mom broke through what she experienced and made it easier for my generation, and I'm making it easier for the next generation. But those challenges and that discrimination against women really was a factor. I will say, for our young parents, both male and female, that raising children take time and raise your kids. Your career will be there when you're on the back side of raising your kids.

I think I'm a great poster child for that. We had five kids in the end and we were able to raise our children and still have very meaningful careers. So don't feel pressured that if you don't make some major career decision right now while you have two toddlers at the house, Right. Raise your kids. Your career will be there for you.

Rob Trubia
You know, the career, careers long, kids go quick. You look back, you're like, my goodness, they're already out of the house. Yeah, I'm going to work for another 20 years.

Charlotte Phelan
Yeah. I always tell people, you only get one chance to raise your children. You will have multiple chances to have a fulfilling career.

Rob Trubia
Well, that's great advice. And and speaking of advice, if you were to sit down and maybe have a coffee or something with a with a young woman who is interested, particularly in federal service, you know, becoming a civil servant, you know, what kind of advice do you have for getting them started? And if they get that opportunity, how to go about succeeding.

Charlotte Phelan
So I think that working in federal service is one of the best avenues that any individual can take. It is meaningful work. You are providing such a difference to the nation so highly, highly encourage people to have a federal career. I think one of the things I did things backwards in my life. I had my military time and I did not focus on my schooling while I was in the military.

So by the time I went to college and then got in a masters. I was already in my early thirties, mid thirties. Highly recommend that you focus on school early and I think most people are. So that may seem like kind of lame advice, but I really think that that having your schooling taken care of, getting a good degree.

Data analytics in today's world is an awesome career field. You know, get get a degree in data analytics and then and then focus more strongly on your career. I had to do the way that I did it. I was working in my career, going to school and having small children in the house all at the same time. I don't recommend that that was a really tough way to do it.

So if you can stagger that load and take care of getting the schooling done first, it's a it's a strong recommendation. The other thing I would say is don't shy away from supervision. So if you're starting your career and you have the opportunity to have a job where you're supervising a team or a job where you're not, don't don't always choose the role where you're not supervising, it really does pay to have some strong supervised supervisory experience in your resume and in your background.

So don't don't shy away from that.

Rob Trubia
Well, thank you, Charlotte, for a fantastic conversation. Tough act to follow, but let's get our next guest on the line. Well, Erin, thank you for taking the time to be on the podcast. We're really glad to have you. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself and the path that took you to a career with GSA? Any interesting stories you can share?

Erin Holcombe
It's funny, I never started out to be an architect or in the building world. I wanted to be a doctor when I was a little kid. I wanted to be a brain surgeon. And so I went through my whole life deciding that's what I wanted to be. And then I got into college and I was just about to sit for the MCAT.

And I decided that was not what I wanted to do. After all, it did not spark excitement on both halves of my brain, didn't have the creativity that I required, as well as the logic that I needed. So I jumped ship and started a track for architecture. So that created a really positive move in my life. It was very fulfilling.

I went to school, I got my master's degree and then I started working and that allowed me to move back to Utah, where I had spent a lot of time in my teenage years simply because when I graduated from college, the market had crashed. So I chased the market crash all the way back to the west side of the U.S. and got a job.

And out of all of my graduating class, I was the only one to maintain my job, mostly because I was really cheap and really good. So I got to hold on to my really crappy [l]paying job and that gave me everything that I needed in terms of career fulfillment. So along my path, I've been able to engage with buildings and design from small, tiny scale.

My first project was a car wash, a two bay car wash all the way up to millions of square feet at the latter part of my career. And that was all in the private sector. And after I had been in the private sector for a dozen years, I decided that I wanted something more. And I found something at GSA because of some of the great things that we do here and some of the excellent work life balance in the benefits and the fulfilment of work.

So in 2021, I moved over to federal service and that's allowed me to kind of put my hands in a lot more than I could have in the private sector.

Rob Trubia
So when you talk about federal service, you're saying that is more what what makes federal service more for you than working in the private sector?

Erin Holcombe
I think it's more for me because working in the private sector, the things that you do impact a small segment of society, right? When you work in the public sector, when you're a public servant, the things that you do impact community wide impact statewide impact nationwide. And when you design and construct in the public sector, you typically are designing and constructing for people that have no say in what you're doing. In the private sector,

you know, you talk to the owner of building, they say, I want this much space and I want it to look like this because they own it and they're invested in it. When we design and construct in the public sector, we are designing for a voiceless client. And I think that that gives us a lot of opportunity.

Rob Trubia
That is really interesting. I would never, ever think of that. Yeah, you're you've got this. It's usually probably pretty big, big budget items, huge projects that affect thousands of people, maybe eventually millions of people. And you've got a sort of think for them. And that probably opens up a lot of creative freedom for you.

Erin Holcombe
It does. It's really exciting.

Rob Trubia
That's neat. I think a lot of people think about federal service and they think of it as less creative. And I think what you're saying is it's really more creative. And I think I've seen that too, in other career fields Well, you know, when I think about architects, I think about people that are pretty passionate about their careers.

I'm curious what it is, particularly about your job at GSA that keeps you excited to come to work each and every morning, or I would say maybe most mornings.

Erin Holcombe
Well, I think part of it's the potential, everything that I'm doing in my current position, because I'm managing a very large, high profile project, everything that I do every day is important and that's really beneficial. You don't ever find a decision or a meeting or something like that that's insubstantial. Whatever you decide, whatever you do makes an impact on at least one person.

And so that's really exciting. But I think the thing that makes me happy to go to work every day is the group of people that I work with and that I work for both on the team and off of the team. So I'm surrounded by visionary designers and expert constructors and fantastic managers as the same time as I work with shareholder[m],.

with the courts, you know, at Homeland Security. And so everything we do makes a decision, makes a decision important. And I think that being able to impact that and be able to impact it in a positive way, whether that be through design, whether that be through sustainability, whether that be through cost savings, it's all important and so having nothing in my life that's insubstantial makes you really cherish all of the things that you were able to do.

Rob Trubia
For the role that you have as a project manager and more specifically as an architect working federal service in the world of construction. I imagine that's a world that's dominated primarily by men. Would I be right about that?

Erin Holcombe
It is. Fortunately, I'll give you my statistical blurb here in a second, but fortunately the good news is it's getting better. So in terms of architecture, when people come out of school, it's about 50/50 men and women. When people get to licensure, that number drops to 24%, I believe is what it was in 2021. So you see, half of all women leave the field of architecture before licensure, construction is even more different.

Only 11% of the construction field is women, and GSA and federal service our numbers are off the charts in terms of parity, which is the equality between men and women, where it's about 50/50. And I think a lot of that has to do with what GSA brings to the table in terms of opportunity, in terms of equal pay, in terms of work life balance that's not prevalent in the field outside of the public sector.[n]

So there's a big push across industry to build resources, build networking that try and push really hard to overcome some of those biases that have traditionally put women's jobs and careers on the backburner.

Rob Trubia
Have you connected with other women in the construction field, in architecture? Have you been inspiring to others? I'm sure just talking to you sounds inspiring. How do they come to you for advice?

Erin Holcombe
I hope so, yeah. So I do try very hard to be out in the fields with other women outside of the GSA components of that. I’m active in the Women in Architecture group in Salt Lake City. I tour commercial real estate women. I try and participating women in construction activities as well. Within GSA, there's a couple of different groups out there that promote women, promote women in leadership.

And the one that I'm most engaged in is a grassroots group called the Women's Leadership Network. And this is a group that started with 22 women after an AIA conference that GSA fortunately provided the opportunity for two people from each region to attend, as you know, continuing education to get us out in the field. And none of us knew each other, but we linked up.

We kept connecting after that and we kept spreading this network of powerful women and strong women. And our numbers have grown by 200% over the last two years and we're still growing. We host Speaker Sessions that, you know, bring women in and they share their stories and they ask questions. We provide opportunities for study groups, for licensure exams and for project management exams.

And then we provide this mass network of women helping to network. So nobody gets where they are in their own sort our goal is to try and lift everybody up together. Because when we stand with each other, we we all stand a little bit taller.

Rob Trubia
Is mentoring been a big thing for you?

Erin Holcombe
Mentoring is huge. You find very few people that have come to a good place in their career that did it without mentors and usually they did it because they had to be strong enough to do it without mentors. You know, it's it's excellent having a mentor. It's excellent to have a guide. And they come in all shapes and sizes.

Rob Trubia
Yeah, that's invaluable advice. Well, as we close out, Erin, I've been asking each guest in this episode if you had a moment to sit down over coffee with someone curious about stepping in a federal service, especially other women, of course, what advice or tips would you offer?

Erin Holcombe
The first thing that I would say is trying to work for the federal government can feel intimidating, but it shouldn't. The resources are out there. The interview and resumé process is very straightforward. And because it puts everyone on an even playing field so you don't have to worry about if there's going to be preference for men or women, you're going to present yourself by fact.

But I think the thing and the best advice I can give anyone, whether it's entering public service or in private practice, is women have a tendency to apologize for who they are. They try and push the we in everything that they've done because that's how we are operating. I mean, there's science and brain chemistry behind it. But when you're going for a job, when you're trying to get into public service, make sure make sure make sure that you emphasize the I in addition to the we.

Right. So I did this. I was working on this project. We accomplished all of this. And here's how I contributed to that success. That's the most valuable thing that I could tell anyone when they're looking to enter a new position is, don't forget there's an I in everything you do.

Rob Trubia
That's such good advice and so practical and helpful. Thank you for that. Well, this has been fun. Thank you Erin that was inspiring and interesting. We've got one more guest for this episode. Well, Zane, it's great to have you on the podcast. Thank you for being here.

Zane Selkirk
It’s so great to be here. I'm excited about our conversation.

Rob Trubia
What can you tell us about your background? Where did you grow up, go to school, any fun hobbies or sports?

Zane Selkirk
I grew up in New York City and I'm still there now. I left for a while, but born and bred New Yorker, I actually did ballet for a lot of my life, but ended up fencing throughout high school and college. So I guess that was sort of my my sport of choice.

Rob Trubia
Fencing, that's fascinating. The only time I ever see fencing is the Olympics. I'm really curious about your path that has led you to GSA. Was federal service a goal? Tell us a little bit about your career path.

Zane Selkirk
Sure. I guess I was sort of a government nerd growing up, I guess as much as you can be one. When I was in high school, I went to tons of model Congress events and just loved it. I still have my dog eared copy of the Federalist Papers that my high school history teacher Let me keep. And then it was just a nerd for it.

I just enjoyed it. And then in college I ended up majoring in political science a little bit by accident. I sort of every semester I would look through that course catalog and pick out the things that seemed most interesting. And at some point I realized that I was going to end up with a polysci major. And so that's what happened, that I always knew that I was not interested in politics, so wasn't really sure where my degree would take me.

And after school, I don't know, life kind of happened by accident. I was trying to pay rent and I got a job as a cocktail waitress at a hotel. And the day I was supposed to start all the hotel workers went on strike in San Francisco. So I never got to start there. And an old boss threw me a bone.

She was at a technology company and she said I could come work for her or part time as a copywriter. I was not qualified to do that, but she helped me out and that was I ended up working there for a number of years and had the opportunity to sort of stretch into a bunch of technology related projects that sort of caught my eye.

So then I got stuck in technology and in a good way, happily stuck and, you know, fast forward a whole bunch of years and I guess with the 2016 election, I got sort of kind of woken up to the relevance of current government and politics again. And I started working as a poll worker, actually, and after that, because I just wanted to feel like I was in the process a little bit and a little bit closer to people engaging with their government.

And that was sort of a really accessible way for me to do that. And I love that and I still love that. And then there's my sort of second step back in this direction was that after COVID, I got involved with a nonprofit that was partnering folks with technology backgrounds with local governments and NGOs to help with various issues that cropped up as a result of COVID.

So I was partnered on a project as an example that was helping distribute CARES Act dollars to folks who were at risk of losing their apartments. And so we partnered legal talent and we gave we were able to distribute money to them. And I think it was a really the projects that I was able to work on were a really nice combination of sort of beginning to understand the impact of policy and the impact of sort of how that policy gets implemented or not implemented, and then also getting access to the humans and the people that were at the other end of all of this government stuff.

And from there it was just a matter of time before I actually found a job in government to go sort of explore that world because I'd been so disconnected from it for so long.

Rob Trubia
So what are you doing right now for GSA? What's your what's your role? Which which part of GSA are you working for?

Zane Selkirk
I work for a part of GSA called the TMF, which is a technology modernization fund. What I say to people outside of government, because most of my everybody I know does not work in government. And other federal agencies come to us and apply for funding essentially to execute on projects that are related technology, related to technology, and specifically sort of the concept of modernization.

All I think that means all sorts of different things. So I partner I get to partner with agencies to come to us, assist them through the process, help them as simply sort of refine their proposals, refine their ideas into a thing that the board wants to fund. And once they get funding from us, continue to advise and help them through the course of the projects that they that they came to us to fund in the first place.

Rob Trubia
You know, we did a podcast on the technology modernization fund, TMF. We were talking about you, but we didn't use your name. We were just talking about the project managers that bring the projects through the funnel and work with them. And so that's neat. That's neat to hear. So you've been in technology pretty deep in the private sector for some prominent companies, and now you're with the federal government still in technology.

I'm curious, what's the same? What's different? Federal to private? Private to federal?

Zane Selkirk
A lot of it is different, but a lot of it is the same. To be fair, I am still buried in the acronym soup of working government. Still trying to find ways to find my way through that. But sort of for all of the jokes and realities about sort of the complexities of the day to day  work in government, I think the types of challenges are universal.

You know, anywhere that you work is going to have sort of weird idiosyncrasies. And in terms of how you interface with a company or your peers or sort of the work that you do. But fundamentally the underlying problems and challenges and opportunities, I believe are sort of similar, fundamentally a similar and I think that's what actually drew me to government as well as I am not only a nerd for government stuff in general, but also sort of how how large systems and organizations operationalize themselves and what makes a large operations tick and hum and work.

And that question you can answer anywhere that you are, whether you're in government or private industry. And I think the government is working at a scale that almost nowhere else exists on. So you're trying to answer those questions and trying to make things work better just at this enormous scale that you don't really have access to anywhere else that you could work.

So I think that's a difference and a challenge in sort of the best possible way, in my view.

Rob Trubia
What's been a happy surprise working for government? What do you enjoy the most?

Zane Selkirk
I just I love feeling like I am doing a thing that I believe in every day. You know, you spend a third of your life at work, roughly, and I want to spend it doing things that I think matter and that I think are relevant to myself and relevant to the people around me. And I don't know that I fully appreciated the value of that alignment to me before I started.

And I'm surrounded by people who are motivated by the same thing. We're all here because we believe that we can make a difference and that we are empowered to do that and have an opportunity to do that and want to be part of that. And that's it's just awesome to be surrounded by that every day. So I think I had I had underestimated how good that would feel and how satisfying that would that would be for me.

Rob Trubia
Continuing to contrast and compare, I'm curious, when you think about the challenges you might have faced in the private sector and then the challenges you might be facing in the public sector, how is that different or how is that the same?

Zane Selkirk
I can answer that in two different ways? I think the one of the most notable changes for me coming to work in government is how much more diverse this place is than any place I worked before. And I think that began to become clear to me even through the interview process with sort of various accommodations just being fundamental to the process.

And now that I'm here, it is extremely rare that I'm the only woman in a in a room, and that's new to me, you know, And I think there, you know, there are folks from all sorts of racial and ethnic backgrounds. I mean, there's there are all kinds of people on every type of spectrum. And that's really special.

And I think particularly as a woman coming from tech, that is markedly different. And I think I can I mean, it should be obvious to say that it's better, but I think there is something sort of more fundamental or sort of meatier. And I'm just saying it's better. I think there's there is absolutely sort of fundamental goodness that comes out of working with a diverse set of people, both from an experiential standpoint as well as from a standpoint of doing better work.

You're in an agency or an organization is able to do better work when you have folks from different backgrounds in the same room working on a problem together. So I think from both those perspectives, it's been awesome. And I don't know that I would have expected that. I definitely didn't expect that coming in.

Rob Trubia
What kind of advice do you have for women who might be curious about stepping into the federal workforce, maybe for you in particular, about a woman that has been in industry, private industry, and you're talking to thm. What kind of advice would you give somebody from some of these companies that you worked at? Here's what it be like or here's why you might want to do this.

Zane Selkirk
I don't know that I would have specific advice as a woman. I think the biggest transition I like the hardest parts of the transition for me are just fundamentally sort of differences between the private sector and government work. And that starts from, you know, an anecdote that always gets that is sort of the government resume or the idea that you wouldn't have a one page resumé is just mind blowing.

But I think that, you know, you'll need to write like a five, six, seven plus page resume and people literally don't understand what would go in there. And I kind of used it as a jumping off point to express like that's how everything in government is. There is just fundamental differences in how people approach exactly the same sort of problem.

Or  a thing. And all of it is an adjustment at that scale where you take all of your assumptions to this point and assume they'll be flipped on their heads and just sort of be read the be ready for it and keep rolling with the punches.

Rob Trubia
I think I can speak with confidence that GSA is pretty psyched to have you on the team and particularly with TMF, which I think is one of the most unique government programs going on, period, in the federal government. So you've kind of landed on it and it's really cool. I love it. So if anyone is out there listening and they're like, I want to know more about TMF, check out our podcast because it was fantastic and it's it's pretty cool.

I think it's probably a really surprising to a lot of your friends in the private sector When you tell them you're doing that for the government. They're like, Yeah, I'm doing that for the government.

Zane Selkirk
Yeah, completely. It's I think, you know, GSA has a bunch of different has their hands on a lot of different sort of technology and technology and adjacent work, which is really incredible stuff. And again, sort of talking about the government scale, like when you touch something in one of these areas, it impacts everybody across the country and does the potential for doing really good, really important work here, not just at the TMF but more broadly across GSA.

When we're at the center of so much that that spans it across government is really unique and it's an awesome place to be.

Rob Trubia
Well, we are super glad you're here and I'm super glad and thankful that appreciative that you taken the time to talk to us today. Thank you, Zane. Thank you very much. And I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did. And that brings us to a close of another episode of GSA Does That!?. Thank you for being with us.

As we marked Women's History Month with Charlotte, Erin and Zane, their candid stories of navigating both challenges and successes, were truly appreciated. A special thanks to them for sharing their paths to GSA, underscoring the value of mentoring and networking, and providing insightful advice for women thinking about a career in federal service. It's discussions like this that inspire me most, and I hope you found it just as engaging.

Thank you for tuning into GSA Does That!? Don't forget to subscribe to our podcast on your favorite platform and consider sharing this episode with friends and colleagues. To suggest the topic or guest, drop us an email at gsadoesthat@gsa.gov. I'm Rob Trubia joined by our executive producer, Max Stempora. This episode was brought to you by the General Services Administration, Office of Strategic Communication.

I hope you have a great rest of your day.