Have you ever strolled past a federal building and found yourself captivated by its architecture, pondering over the inspiration behind its design and construction? If so, episode 10 of "GSA Does That!?" is for you.
Join us as we talk with Chuck Hardy, the Chief Architect of the General Services Administration, and renowned architect Carol Ross Barney.
The conversations in this podcast unveil and illuminate the passion and thought that goes into the buildings GSA constructs and manages.
Want to know more?
Looking for more information about design excellence, art in architecture, or upcoming projects? The resource below can help.
"GSA Does That!?" is the U.S. General Services Administration's first agency-wide podcast, offering listeners an inside look into how GSA and its partners benefit the American people. Hosted by Rob Trubia, the podcast features interviews with GSA leaders, experts, partners, and customers, covering topics such as federal real estate, acquisitions, and technology. The title reflects many's surprise at the scope of GSA's impact. At the same time, the artwork pays homage to President Harry S. Truman, who established GSA in 1949 to improve government efficiency and save taxpayer money. Whether you're a policy wonk or just curious about government operations, you can join the listener community.
For more information about the show visit, gsa.gov/podcast.
Have you ever strolled past a federal building and found yourself captivated by its architecture, pondering over the inspiration behind its design and construction? If so, episode 10 of "GSA Does That!?" is for you.
Join us as we talk with Chuck Hardy, the Chief Architect of the General Services Administration, and renowned architect Carol Ross Barney.
The conversations in this podcast unveil and illuminate the passion and thought that goes into the buildings GSA constructs and manages.
Want to know more?
Looking for more information about design excellence, art in architecture, or upcoming projects? The resource below can help.
"GSA Does That!?" is the U.S. General Services Administration's first agency-wide podcast, offering listeners an inside look into how GSA and its partners benefit the American people. Hosted by Rob Trubia, the podcast features interviews with GSA leaders, experts, partners, and customers, covering topics such as federal real estate, acquisitions, and technology. The title reflects many's surprise at the scope of GSA's impact. At the same time, the artwork pays homage to President Harry S. Truman, who established GSA in 1949 to improve government efficiency and save taxpayer money. Whether you're a policy wonk or just curious about government operations, you can join the listener community.
For more information about the show visit, gsa.gov/podcast.
00;00;06;09 - 00;00;27;08
Rob Trubia
Welcome back to another episode of GSA Does That!? I'm your host, Rob Trubia, and we have a real treat for you today. In our 10th episode, we're talking about something that affects each and every one of us, whether we realize it or not. Federal architecture. And we have two absolutely amazing guests to educate us. First up is Chuck Hardy's GSA's, a very own chief architect.
00;00;27;10 - 00;00;46;12
Rob Trubia
Chuck will shed light on how he and his team make sure federal buildings are not just functional and green, but also stunning. We'll dig into how these buildings are not just workplaces, but actually important parts of our communities. We'll also discuss the art that graces these buildings and the role that landscape design has in enhancing the spaces outside of our federal buildings.
00;00;46;18 - 00;01;10;04
Rob Trubia
Our second guest is Carol Ross Barney, the Chicago based architectural legend and recipient of the 2023 American Institute of Architects Gold Medal. Carol's portfolio just happens to include the Oklahoma City Federal Building. She's built an impressive career crafting public spaces that elevate our everyday lives from her philosophies on design to her views on the future of federal architecture.
00;01;10;06 - 00;01;25;20
Rob Trubia
You won't want to miss a second of what she has to say. So if you've ever looked at one of our federal buildings and wondered how it got to be that way or what thought went into its creation, stick around. I think you're going to love this episode. Hi Chuck. thanks for taking the time to be with us today.
00;01;25;21 - 00;01;30;29
Rob Trubia
I wondered if you might share a little bit about yourself. Where are you from? And maybe how did you become an architect?
00;01;31;01 - 00;01;55;04
Chuck Hardy
All right. Thank you for having me today. Great question to kick us in. I grew up in the Midwest, although born out in Denver, lived in outside of Detroit, Michigan for a while. I moved to Wisconsin and Racine home of Frank Lloyd Wright, great architecture. College up in Minnesota. I've just been bouncing around the Midwest for most of my life.
00;01;55;07 - 00;02;22;02
Chuck Hardy
Went to college up in Minnesota, through a ROTC scholarship for a for architecture, actually. And and got into that by way of an interest in design. And the built environment just always intrigued me, and that's why I got into it. I graduated from college and what the Air Force and as the Air Force goes, that was always the need of the Air Force, which was intelligence officers were needed at the time I graduated.
00;02;22;02 - 00;02;48;24
Chuck Hardy
So I became an Air Force intelligence officer and not an architect, even though that’s what my degree was for. I got the scholarship I got. But that caused me to go out and get a second job while I was working full time for the Air Force. I got a full time job as a architect down in Florida and was able to do some academic architecture work, some developer work, some houses and things like that, but really got experience in the industry and got licensed
00;02;48;24 - 00;02;57;04
Chuck Hardy
while I was in Florida while serving in the military and doing a side job of an architect. Didn't get a lot of sleep those years. But it was a lot of good experience.
00;02;57;07 - 00;03;00;29
Rob Trubia
You sounded bit motivated for sure.
00;03;01;02 - 00;03;20;14
Chuck Hardy
Yeah, and from that just stayed with the program. I got in private sector job and work on the outside. And I saw and advertisement for government architect, which piqued my curiosity, you know, what does that do or does that mean and and had an interview, had some conversations and what looked like It was fun and it's been fun. For the last 30 years or so.
00;03;20;16 - 00;03;22;17
Rob Trubia
It seems like it's sort of worked out for you.
00;03;22;20 - 00;03;23;22
Chuck Hardy
It has, it has.
00;03;23;24 - 00;03;30;24
Rob Trubia
So you're the chief architect of GSA. Can you share with us some of your core responsibilities in that amazing role?
00;03;30;26 - 00;03;58;06
Chuck Hardy
Yeah, under the chief architect, we have a lot of subject matter expertise in a bunch of different environments. So we have architectural and design excellence, of course. Design excellence was established back in 1994, and that's one of our core core elements. But we also have engineering under us and, and we're our own code authority, which most people don't know. So we do follow most current code and try to work with the localities on their code.
00;03;58;08 - 00;04;26;15
Chuck Hardy
But it's a it's a heavy lift on engineering, making sure we're doing things right, but we're also driving change in the industry with our engineering folks and low embodied carbon concrete specifications and more sustainable asphalt. A lot of things we’re doing make that a real cool operation. And then fine arts falls under my group. Got 27,000 pieces of art, the Fine Arts collection, the oldest works, go back to 1850. Newest works were installed this year.
00;04;26;18 - 00;04;47;00
Chuck Hardy
We're on our 50th anniversary, which you might have heard about, but really, really fun stuff. Really cool stuff from the art side. Historic, we've got 500 historic buildings. So I’m also overseer of the historic property, that we own we hold, we have a house about 40% of the square footage of our own buildings on those 500 buildings, y and those buildings are in communities.
00;04;47;00 - 00;05;16;02
Chuck Hardy
So I've got urban planning under me. We have more than 8500 facilities and in more than 2000 communities. So pretty or we're not only wide, but we're deep as well. So it's a making sure [inaudible] that we're really leaving places better than we arrive and make sure we're taking care of the communities we’re in. And then the Federal coworking and workplace initiatives are all up in the in the forefront of conversations out there.
00;05;16;02 - 00;05;27;23
Chuck Hardy
That also falls under my purview. So all those pieces come together at the Office of Architecture and Engineering, which myself as the chief architect is overseeing, but all the great stuff.
00;05;27;26 - 00;05;50;21
Rob Trubia
Well, that is a lot, a lot of cool stuff. That's really pretty, really exciting. Well, Chuck, when people think federal architecture, I'm sure they probably think a lot about, you know, our Capitol, Washington, D.C.. Can you educate us a little bit about federal architecture in the last hundred plus years? So what are we seeing in DC and what are we seeing throughout the nation when it comes to federal buildings.
00;05;50;28 - 00;06;16;14
Chuck Hardy
Architecture over the years and not just federal architect architecture general comes from the profession to the people, and it creates a vocabulary or a language so it’s familiar or understandable. But when you see something people actually get it and the non architects of the world or yeah it makes sense. And the more you see of certain things, the more familiar they become.
00;06;16;14 - 00;07;06;10
Chuck Hardy
And over time it's probably been 16 or 17 different styles that have come and gone. There was classical early on, but that was, you know, replaced by Byzantine and Romanesque. And then you had the Gothic, which was asymmetrical and different than the ordered classical. And then that went on to the Renaissance, which was bringing back classical. And then from that, to baroque to art nouveau and neoclassicism, all the way up to postmodernism, and today which some are calling parametricism, which is really taking technology to a new level and once I heard quote recently that from the stone age didn’t end because we ran out of stones, because we had improved technology and improved
00;07;06;10 - 00;07;26;09
Chuck Hardy
processes. And I think architecture is the same way is the technology we have today allows us to do greater things with structure, with volumes, with surfaces and shapes. And how do you take advantage of that in a meaningful way? Don't just do it. Do it. We got it here to go. [inaudible] But do it in a meaningful way.
00;07;26;12 - 00;07;53;04
Chuck Hardy
And that's really I think as architecture has moved through the ages, it's always trying to take advantage and to push society a little more further. You have one of I, like a lot of people favorite project is Brunelleschi's Dome and Santa Maria del Fiore. A building was built in 1420. Uh, took 16 years to build and then you can add another ten to that.
00;07;53;07 - 00;08;23;03
Chuck Hardy
When they decided to add a lantern on top of the play at 26 years of a construction project. But it is still the tallest brick dome in the built in the world. And it's been the widest vault the world until the 20th century. This was something have done that in 1420. And so when you look at that inspiration and you look at a challenge and as we're designing buildings today and doing things like how can I help up in this project, have that kind of impact and look at industry in a way that that needed that moving.
00;08;23;10 - 00;08;42;06
Rob Trubia
I guess when an architect designs a building, particularly a federal building, a building for the public, they're trying to think, how can this have a lasting impact and really uphold, you know, American values and make people feel good when they walk by it, when they come in it and it continues to sort of build it's it's interest and love.
00;08;42;08 - 00;08;51;02
Rob Trubia
I mean, public buildings have such a symbolic value for the public. What is good architecture do for the American public, particularly when it comes to a federal building?
00;08;51;09 - 00;09;19;09
Chuck Hardy
I think that that of federal presence there, that it does architecture at its best, should be comforting. Truvius who was a Roman architect back in one B.C had that same question posed to him from Augustus Caesar. So how do you know architecture is successful and his answer was firmness, commodity, and delight. And firmness as the structurally sound that's going to it's going to last the ages. Commodity.
00;09;19;09 - 00;09;40;15
Chuck Hardy
It's actually serving a purpose. There's a need, a business need, or a community of why am building this building? And then finally, delight. It has to be pleasing to the eye and be able to actually serve a greater good. So if you have the three pieces, I think federal architecture needs that. And does that effectively you get success.
00;09;40;18 - 00;09;50;10
Chuck Hardy
We certainly when we do our projects. We're bringing jobs to town, we're enabling missions and things like that. They'll all feed into those very core ideas, of firmness, commodity, and delight.
00;09;50;13 - 00;09;54;25
Rob Trubia
So it sounds like a lot of styles of architecture can do what you're talking about.
00;09;54;28 - 00;10;21;23
Chuck Hardy
Yes, there are no one size fits all. Let's go do that. And make it happen. Again, as I mentioned, over the years, everything from ancient Egyptian and Mesopotamian and all the way up to postmodernism and modernist and renaissance and neoclassicism it’s evolving it needs to evolve because If we do get stagnation and it starts to do things, it shouldn’t do. Again,
00;10;21;23 - 00;10;54;06
Chuck Hardy
back to that vocabulary language. There's a meaning behind it. I'll quote Yogi Berra. If you can’t immitate them, don’t copy them.And that gets to the point of you’ve really got to understand why why things are done the way they're done. Architecture is meant to inspire and meant to do great things in different ways. But it all goes back to some of the very basic principles of architecture that was probably talked about around the campfires in one BC that the architects are talking today.
00;10;54;09 - 00;11;13;11
Rob Trubia
I'm curious, the Eisenhower Executive Office Building has always caught my attention When I come to D.C. it's sitting right next to the White House. It's a very interesting building. I think it's really interest beautiful, really. But I think from what I understand from my little bit of research that I could do on that was it initially was really highly criticized.
00;11;13;13 - 00;11;21;16
Rob Trubia
What type of architecture is that and why do you think now it's really become a city landmark? I mean, people like that building.
00;11;21;18 - 00;11;49;27
Chuck Hardy
It it Beaux Arts and that is the ornamentation you see on that building. And and that was part of maybe the drive around brutalist architecture in the federal government. You know, there's a sense that we don't want to be unduly oriented and spending money on building shouldn’t, And we shouldn't. But what design excellence has kind of raised and brought to the forefront is we can make a building look good or bad.
00;11;50;00 - 00;12;15;03
Chuck Hardy
For the same cost. So why don't we make the building with delight as Vatruvius would say. And so when you look at public buildings and you look at the time some of the buildings take the take to put in place, the costs the buildings take to put into place the is going to take the place there does come a challenge. We're probably no better or worse in in cost and time of construction.
00;12;15;05 - 00;12;35;12
Chuck Hardy
As we were back in the day. Probably some things go faster, but we’re losing some craft labor. So if we get and try to do we try to build the past, sometimes we're just building meretricious moments where they're great, Kodak great for a photograph, but not necessarily functional for you’re trying to do.
00;12;35;14 - 00;12;55;23
Rob Trubia
Would you say that the big challenge today in government buildings, government architecture, and we were talking about being sustainable, we're talking about being green, these buildings. So they need to be functional. People need to work there every day. And at the same time, they are, you know, landmarks. They are to lift up the public and have that sense of of pride.
00;12;55;25 - 00;13;00;27
Rob Trubia
What's the big challenge in today's environment of architecture for the federal government?
00;13;01;00 - 00;13;21;21
Chuck Hardy
It's a huge challenge across the board because but the more ability we gain over time with technology and tool, the material, the more choices you have, the more things you can do. And if you're solely focused on the esthetic and the building, how does it look from the outside will it be a piece of art in a town or city or community.
00;13;21;24 - 00;13;41;15
Chuck Hardy
I think you're moving that the commodity piece of why we're in that business, but you can't forget it just like, you know, coffee and a cup. You want coffee that tastes good. But you know, you also want to make sure that you're drinking something that leaks out of what your drinking out of. And building are the same way. And they have to function. They have to be meaningful.
00;13;41;15 - 00;14;07;18
Chuck Hardy
They have to excite and energize people going to them. And even in today's environment, talking about returning to the office, that is, you want to be inspired by your workplace. We want to be inspired by your buildings. It's always right when I walk around, whether it's Chicago, which is a great architectural talent or DC that's walking around, people are walking around with their head, looking up in the air or the buildings and appreciating their environment.
00;14;07;18 - 00;14;28;22
Chuck Hardy
And that's that's really I think the challenge of our federal architecture is to how do we create that federal presence for them in the community, how do we serve the community, But how do we also inspire the the person, that’s walking by that’s not going to go in the building? And say, “Hey, that's a great building. And and I'm glad the federal government did that for our community.”
00;14;28;25 - 00;14;35;25
Rob Trubia
What about the sustainability piece, the green peace? How much of that affects the design of the building?
00;14;35;27 - 00;15;04;00
Chuck Hardy
It it affects it a lot, and I think it's affecting it more as people are becoming more aware of the conversation. When you do a design, you really have to take that into account from from the beginning. The other pieces are just driving the project team, driving architecture, driving our contractor community to think beyond what they've done in the past to what is the art of the possible for some of these projects on sustainability.
00;15;04;02 - 00;15;31;24
Chuck Hardy
Yeah, we've all always thought that way, but what if we did it this way? Would that help and what would it serve? So the challenge that people could continually elevate. Architects by nature are creative. And so you got a lot of folks coming in with a lot of ideas, but businesses are businesses but we’ve got time schedules and money in place, so you somehow make sure that you integrate those two conversations that this is a great idea that we can that we can still accomplish within the constraints you have.
00;15;31;26 - 00;15;59;17
Chuck Hardy
And let's go to take maybe one step forward, maybe a huge leap forward. But that's that's how I think we as the government. So the other thing I'm the sustainability and this is across pretty much all the aspect of construction and design and government have a unique superpower of the power to convene. We can bring disparate parties together to say let’s talk about this problem, figure out a way to solve this problem.
00;15;59;20 - 00;16;17;04
Chuck Hardy
We can bring architects and contractor and lawyers and surety, suppliers all in the same room. Who typically wouldn’t be in the same room to say let’s talk about the greater good here. How can we move industry in a way that’s positive. And that will help get us to where we need to be on the sustainability side to build where we can green our building better.
00;16;17;04 - 00;16;19;07
Chuck Hardy
Do things better, do things smart.
00;16;19;10 - 00;16;30;28
Rob Trubia
What about renovating historic buildings? I mean, we're taking these beautiful historic buildings. We need to get them more energy efficient. What's that challenge like? Is that does that even harder than building a brand new building?
00;16;31;00 - 00;16;53;17
Chuck Hardy
Great question. Of historic buildings are way ahead of their time. Because if you look at the window, the cross ventilation, the solar orientation of our older buildings, there wasn't a lot of thought put into that. They may not have been as technical, bringing up the models we're doing now, and the things we’re doing, but some of it would be intuitive that, but a lot of it be very intentional.
00;16;53;17 - 00;17;14;16
Chuck Hardy
And so I always tell folks from the workplace side, the modern mobile office is back when you had, you know, whether they'd be oak desks or a battleship gray metal desk, that you could push around and move to create a project team overnight in 30 minutes versus calling in a vendor to retool the system was a much simpler time, but a much more comfortable time.
00;17;14;17 - 00;17;33;23
Chuck Hardy
You had the cross ventilation. You had to lay outs that brought daylight again, the space. You had a lot of things that we're trying to bring back today in both technologically improved ways, but also going back to some of the learning from earlier days of of how did that work and when you get through had a historic building, like I said
00;17;33;25 - 00;17;56;21
Chuck Hardy
we own 500 of them. That's all embodied carbon. We've already spent that carbon. We've already got that asset in place. So, how do you make it useful and somethings I think we are reborn in a different way that you think of those who are old enough to remember. Phone booth and, and payphones in every building and every lobby in the older buildings those didn't go away.
00;17;56;23 - 00;18;25;05
Chuck Hardy
But now you've got companies coming out with in essence phonebooths for Zoom calls and Google calls in the office that plug into the wall. So we're repurposing those kind of booths back into Zoom or Google, Google, meet at a booth rather than phonebooths. So I think as we breathe life back into the old structures we do and such a way that it makes them meaningful again.
00;18;25;07 - 00;18;36;20
Chuck Hardy
And to me that's part of the timeless architecture. Here’s something that is 100 years old that are functioning as well today and in 2023 as it did back in 1920.
00;18;36;24 - 00;18;48;14
Rob Trubia
Looking beyond buildings, landscape architecture I find fascinating. Is that under your purview, is there a landscape project that you can point to that GSA has had something to do with that? It's led?
00;18;48;16 - 00;19;20;06
Chuck Hardy
Yeah. We have a landscape architect on my staff and landscape architects in the regions and landscape architecture is crucial to all of our buildings because that really is the welcome mat to the building and typically a link to the cities. So we've got everything from just straightforward or standard landscape design on a facility to the landscape actually becoming the art on a project. The Rockford courthouse has a grove of crabapple trees as the art for that projects.
00;19;20;06 - 00;19;58;18
Chuck Hardy
So it’s not only removing some of that the absence of the canopy in a downtown area, but it's giving the community someplace that actually knows that inspired rest. And for those going into the building to the courthouse someplace look kind of made maybe decompress because by bringing in and combining both landscaping and art on the front entry of the building in a way that's meaningful, that community or to that that family that went to court the court that day I think does exactly what landscape architecture is supposed to do and integrate with the architecture of the building again.
00;19;58;18 - 00;20;14;14
Chuck Hardy
And to me, the more we can integrate every integrated with the community, integrate landscape architecture and into our building, the architecture, you integrate engineering appropriately into architecture. Integrating art into architecture is really when you're supercharging to buy.
00;20;14;16 - 00;20;35;23
Rob Trubia
Speaking of art, can you talk to us a little bit about the art and architecture program? I think you said in the top of this conversation 27,000 pieces of art or under GSA’s purview. Yeah. Tell us a little bit about that. How do you do you commission new artists or is it really just about taking care of in selecting art that already exists?
00;20;35;26 - 00;21;06;09
Chuck Hardy
Good question. 27,000 pieces of art are art that we own across the country and that are in our collection and under our care and under our curation, if you will, Any new project in the capital project, one half of 1% go to what is known as art and architecture, and that go for art piece for that major capital project, separate commission to an artist selected from a registry of artists that we have in the country right now.
00;21;06;09 - 00;21;33;18
Chuck Hardy
2,700 artists on that registry. Last year we actually got that online. And for anybody can go in and get on that registry by submitting the appropriate information and samples and then we get a selection committee that's made up of one of the end users in the building, a couple of art professionals from inside the government a couple of art professionals from the community.
00;21;33;18 - 00;21;52;11
Chuck Hardy
We have community representation and they look at that list of all the artists registry and then they then pull some in there. Not just one, they choose people appropriate for the building, we're doing and then they come in and then have those interviews for what their visions are for the building, what the art piece.
00;21;52;11 - 00;22;15;13
Chuck Hardy
And then we work with them to work with the architect, the architect on that panel as well. So that that early on integration and conversation of here is how art can help integrate where we're going and trying to get with a holistic solution of the building we're doing. And then the artist comes on board, works with the architect, works with the GSA, and end up from really great things.
00;22;15;13 - 00;22;33;17
Chuck Hardy
We get some really cool architecture around around the country to look at and do the collection itself. It’s meant to be for public viewing. It's not not to go inside somebody’s office where the public can’t [inaudible]. And so our focus is about taking pieces of art and making sure they're out in the public purview.
00;22;33;20 - 00;22;46;08
Rob Trubia
Chuck, you've got a really neat job. Can you share with us before we end the conversation, where can listeners go to learn more about the history and design of federal architecture or maybe learn about what's coming in the future, maybe in their own community?
00;22;46;11 - 00;23;07;10
Chuck Hardy
The best place to go is just GSA.gov and you can get to the design excellence links from here and that'll that'll link into our projects. And then locally, where easy to reach out to If you're in a region talk to GSA folks, they're happy to do the tours and we're just we want to show off the great thing we do and the buildings we do.
00;23;07;10 - 00;23;22;14
Chuck Hardy
Every building we have has a building manager our buildings that keeps them going. We want to connect with the community And certainly if you're interested in doing with us doing work with us the GSA.gov path is the right way to go.
00;23;22;16 - 00;23;47;22
Rob Trubia
This has been really fascinating, interesting, historic. I mean, it's just really neat. So, Chuck, thanks for your time. We really appreciate it. Fresh off of what felt like a master's class in federal architecture, from Chuck, it's time to welcome the celebrated Carol Ross Barney. Carol, it's an honor to have you with us today. Chuck Hardy was just on with us, Carol, and he had amazing things to say.
00;23;47;22 - 00;24;16;19
Rob Trubia
He really took us to school about federal architecture. We certainly touched on Oklahoma City. We talked about you a little bit, but we're excited to get to know you as a great example of an architect who really understands public spaces and understands what architecture can do for people, for community, and for bringing people together. So thanks for being with us.
00;24;16;21 - 00;24;19;00
Carol Ross Barney
No, thank you for asking me.
00;24;19;02 - 00;24;29;05
Rob Trubia
Well, Carol, I think we're all curious what initially drew you to a career in architecture and what continues to fuel your passion for the field today?
00;24;29;07 - 00;24;56;19
Carol Ross Barney
Well, quite honestly, I am I'm a I'm a boomer. I'm a child of sixties. And so when I was I mean, when I was in eighth grade, John Kennedy was elected president. And I kind of remember that because it was so I think if you were young at that time, what you were learning, he was so inspirational and he challenged you to do the best you can do.
00;24;56;21 - 00;25;15;29
Carol Ross Barney
And to me, this was so exciting and I actually thought I would be an artist. I was really good at making things. I really liked making things, drawing, doing that type of thing. And but that stopped me dead in my tracks because I thought, well, how am I going to save the world by by making things and drawing.
00;25;16;00 - 00;25;41;10
Carol Ross Barney
It didn't seem like there was a fit there, and I knew that I had to save the world or I thought I did. When I was 14, I thought of architecture on my own. I thought, Well, what what should people who have these skills, how can they help? I don't know. It's just so crazy. And I thought and I said, Well, maybe I can make better cities and I mean, I was terribly naive.
00;25;41;12 - 00;25;55;06
Carol Ross Barney
And the good news is I've never been disappointed in my career choice. I really I really do believe that design can change, wow can change people's condition?
00;25;55;08 - 00;26;06;29
Rob Trubia
Yeah. You that's pretty unique, really, to decide what you want to be in high school and then have an illustrious career doing it for decades. So congratulations. That in itself is an accomplishment.
00;26;07;05 - 00;26;27;16
Carol Ross Barney
I'm still working at it though. I haven't saved the world yet. We still have a lot of problems, so but I've been really happy. I'm happy, which is kind of a weird word because it's not it's not easy work necessarily, mostly because there are a lot of problems in the world and they're not solved. But I've always been challenged.
00;26;27;18 - 00;26;53;05
Rob Trubia
I'm really curious about your very philosophical person. From what I have read and watched and listened to about you and architecture and philosophy, I think a lot of people don't think they really go together, but I think they definitely do for you. And I'm curious if you could talk a little bit about the things that I've heard you say about quality of life and architecture and design excellence being a right and not a privilege.
00;26;53;05 - 00;26;56;22
Rob Trubia
Can you flesh that out a little bit for us?
00;26;56;25 - 00;27;31;22
Carol Ross Barney
Absolutely. I think, you know, if you look at who we become over especially, I think over the last couple of centuries, people who I was just talking about manifestos, people who believe that there should be equality and then you look at the environment that we live in. One of the probably the most glaring ways are false about our society is inequality in your your accommodations, the space you occupy.
00;27;31;24 - 00;27;52;27
Carol Ross Barney
I mean, how can you enjoy your life and and add to add to your society if you don't have a decent place to live, you know, environments that that penalize people just I mean, they keep they keep us from being who we should be and who we want to be. And that's why I that's why I like public work.
00;27;52;27 - 00;28;15;18
Carol Ross Barney
I mean, one of my favorite projects that we that we've done, for example, is the River Walk in Chicago. And it it started because I do think I love the design, but and it was really a challenge to do to make a space that were exactly like that. But the thing that I like the best is it has an equality about it.
00;28;15;18 - 00;28;46;26
Carol Ross Barney
It is a public space. Anyone can go there and it teaches us how hospitable the city can be, how green it can be, how welcoming it can be. And I think it inspires people to make other spaces like that. So I think each project is a chance to make something bigger. I really do. And not that me personally, I think it's a chance for people to understand what potential there is to make things better, to improve your life quality.
00;28;47;01 - 00;29;08;06
Carol Ross Barney
Some things are really sort of nuts and bolts. One of the things that I think that, for example, futures, city planners or city planners today should be more concerned with is what we talk a lot about air quality. But what about other qualities? What about for example, noise pollution or light pollution? And they all affect how you feel about your life.
00;29;08;06 - 00;29;31;06
Carol Ross Barney
And they all are things that are part of the design of our environment. Some of them, I think, will be existential. And yet if you look at a basically if you look at what people are doing to the planet, we have to stop polluting the planet and working for the Adrian Dominicans. Now I'm remodeling one high school. It actually was my high school.
00;29;31;06 - 00;29;52;10
Carol Ross Barney
I went to a Dominican high school and one of their tenets is that we have to stop abusing the earth. And at first I was a little taken aback about using the word abuse and earth in the same sentence. But in a way, I think you need strong language right now. We have to stop abusing the earth. That why,
00;29;52;12 - 00;30;17;17
Carol Ross Barney
and this is maybe why we're talking today. I was so glad to hear that GSA has been able to adapt the Oklahoma City Federal Building, which we did. Oh man, It was completed in 2004, so it's 20 years old now and technology's changed. We know more and it was so glad to hear that that building was adaptable, to be even more efficient than it was when it was constructed.
00;30;17;19 - 00;30;24;09
Carol Ross Barney
And I mean, that's that's great. That's well, that's what I want to happen.
00;30;24;11 - 00;30;30;25
Rob Trubia
I think it's really considered to be a model federal building now for green energy and being retrofitted as well.
00;30;30;27 - 00;30;43;17
Carol Ross Barney
Yeah, I think that's you know, there are things that we didn't know when we were making that building and the fact that it could be retrofit retrofitted and that people wanted to it's great. It's just amazing.
00;30;43;20 - 00;31;02;27
Rob Trubia
You know, going back to when you designed that building and and really how you think of it now, since then, what was what was it that you were trying to accomplish when you design that building? Was there anything in particular that you really wanted to come through in the design of the Oklahoma City Federal Building?
00;31;03;00 - 00;31;20;06
Carol Ross Barney
You know, for me, Oklahoma City Federal Building was almost like a perfect project in some ways because there were so many things that I was interested in that was that was represented by the project. But I started out with the very simple things. One of the reasons, my partner, Jim Jane Koski, and I went after it is we'd never been to Oklahoma.
00;31;20;06 - 00;31;53;19
Carol Ross Barney
It was on our list of some of the 50 states we had to visit. At that point, we had not practiced outside of Chicago, but we thought, Well, hey, wicked, we'll see Oklahoma if you go after this job. And the GSA had just started their design and excellence program. Ed Feiner, who is one of my patron saint, he had convinced the GSA, it convinced the federal government that they should pay more attention to the federal design guidelines, which were really based in quality.
00;31;53;21 - 00;32;11;18
Carol Ross Barney
And then you'd find quality by looking at the at the talent of the designer not just the number of buildings they had done. Like, you know, he'd do 50 schools and they're all bad. Are you a good school designer? He said no. So we were really encouraged. We said, Oh, you know, we'll be able we'll be able to.
00;32;11;18 - 00;32;36;22
Carol Ross Barney
We like that idea. So that was why we went there. But when you think about the project, it was really it was a watershed moment for the GSA and for our country. It was the first sort of act of domestic terrorism. The whole country was aware of. And it was by someone I mean, it was by someone who lived among us.
00;32;36;24 - 00;33;01;21
Carol Ross Barney
And it was something that I think people didn't think could happen. It was a shock. And the reaction to that was really complex on the surface. Congress said, well, you know, we're not running away. We're going to rebuild on the site. Which is interesting because at that point there was not a huge office where federal huge market or federal office space.
00;33;01;28 - 00;33;30;18
Carol Ross Barney
So this was a commitment about principle more than it was about economic need. Then there were other there were other reactions that followed immediately after the one. The one was what if we if we fortify this and we make it so it's really strong and we don't have to run away? How does that represent open government, which is the basic idea behind federal design, that these buildings are for the people.
00;33;30;20 - 00;34;02;23
Carol Ross Barney
And so they seem to be conflicting values right there. So whoever was the designer would be challenged by that, and we were challenged by that. In fact, later on, Ed told us that the reason that they selected us, we had been designing schools for really tough neighborhoods in Chicago. And in a way, the dynamic was the same. You wanted the kids to feel really secure, but you wanted them to feel like they were open, that this was open arms also.
00;34;02;26 - 00;34;26;27
Carol Ross Barney
And so somehow they figured that we could do that in Chicago. Maybe we could make a building that would be defensible, but not defensive. In Oklahoma City. But it got even deeper after we got there. So those were the principles after we got there. It turned out that the a lot of the same agencies were moving in, not all of them.
00;34;26;27 - 00;34;49;06
Carol Ross Barney
And for individuals who had been in the building the day it was the day it was attacked, that was terrifying. They didn't want to move back. And so some of the first meetings we had were with people who didn't care what we design. They just didn't want to go back and so, again, I'm I'm going to tell you that Ed was a great guy.
00;34;49;08 - 00;35;15;24
Carol Ross Barney
He suggested that we devise a series of meetings, basically an engagement with the people who were stakeholders in this building, and they included the government of Oklahoma City, you know, cityhall, the mayor, those people, it included, obviously the agency heads would be leasing the building, but it also included the people who would be moving back into the building.
00;35;15;26 - 00;35;37;13
Carol Ross Barney
And in the end, we did a lot of things wrong talking to them. We asked them a lot of questions. Some of them didn't turn out to be they didn't appear to be good questions because it was the first time we ever tried asking questions like this. For example, we asked what was the prime, what do they think the prime design objective was?
00;35;37;13 - 00;36;02;05
Carol Ross Barney
This was to the tenants who didn't want to move back in. And the number one answer that we got back was the number one objective was no parking near the building, which makes sense because Timothy McVeigh pulled his rental truck right up next to the building. The number two, the number two goal they thought should be close, convenient parking.
00;36;02;07 - 00;36;27;11
Carol Ross Barney
And you hear those two together, you think you can't possibly solve this design problem. But in a way, that's the essence of it. And sometimes design is complex. Actually, all the time it's complex. The best design solution serves many, many, many problems. And so what sounded and at least at the beginning, it has sort of been an enigma, actually turned out to be the answer.
00;36;27;11 - 00;36;35;09
Carol Ross Barney
It had to be convenient. It had to be secure. It had to be welcoming.
00;36;35;12 - 00;36;40;00
Rob Trubia
Sounds like being a good architect. Also, you need to be a good listener.
00;36;40;02 - 00;37;03;08
Carol Ross Barney
Oh, you do. You do. But there's a difference between listening and doing. Which was it? Which is sort of what I mean when I say that we didn't know what were the right questions. It turned out the most valuable piece of that engagement. Was it people telling us what the building should look like or what the materials should be, or how big their offices should be?
00;37;03;11 - 00;37;25;24
Carol Ross Barney
The most important thing about that engagement was making them feel comfortable with the new building and getting their support for its success. And so, yes, it is listening, but the things you listen to are sometimes not what people I mean, we're not asking people to design the building. We're asking them to join our effort to, improve the environment.
00;37;25;26 - 00;37;52;03
Rob Trubia
Yeah, Chuck talked about architecture and particularly federal architecture being a huge collaborative project, and it's not just the finished product that they're after, it's just the growth in the industry. And how can public spaces be enhanced and be made to be better by getting a lot of really smart people together in a room to ask a lot of questions and really rub shoulders?
00;37;52;05 - 00;38;01;22
Carol Ross Barney
Oh, that's spot on. Innovation. This is part of collaboration. But beyond that, I think that community engagement helps us have a shared purpose.
00;38;01;24 - 00;38;18;13
Rob Trubia
Carol When you think about as an architect worked with someone, your breadth of experience, when you think about federal buildings going forward in our nation, I'm curious what you think that challenges and what are the opportunities, particularly for federal buildings in America.
00;38;18;15 - 00;38;46;05
Carol Ross Barney
Wow. It's really interesting because I'm teaching at I.I.T. I have been teaching there for 30 years now. I love teaching, keeps my brain free and federal buildings aren't much different in a way. They have to deal with the complex issues of our society and there are a lot of complex issues. So federal buildings are the future, I think.
00;38;46;05 - 00;39;09;12
Carol Ross Barney
I think they're going to get their inspiration from. We're talking about the idea of manifesto from our manifesto that we're created equal, that this is an open government where everybody contributes and is expected to contribute. And so you can see how, Carol, you just such an idealist that's not what happened. That doesn't matter as long as you believe it can happen and you'll work to make it happen.
00;39;09;15 - 00;39;34;25
Carol Ross Barney
So that for me is what federal buildings will have to represent in the future. And in that capacity, what will they be? First of all, they'll be sustainable because we can't we can't assure that that our society, that our citizens will be safe unless we make buildings sustainable. I think that that's what those will be. The drivers for federal building openness, equity and sustainability.
00;39;34;28 - 00;39;43;04
Carol Ross Barney
And in a way, they're the things we've been trying to achieve ever since our government before our country was founded. Same stuff. Hopefully we're getting closer.
00;39;43;06 - 00;40;03;24
Rob Trubia
But we certainly appreciate you taking the time today to talk to us. This has been, like I said, a privilege. So interesting, so much fun for us to listen to. And I think our listeners are going to love this conversation. Thank you, Carol. Thank you for what you've done for for the people of this country in your design, whether it be the River Walk.
00;40;03;24 - 00;40;05;07
Rob Trubia
In Chicago.
00;40;05;10 - 00;40;14;14
Rob Trubia
Or Transit Building or Oklahoma City Federal Building and so many other schools. You are a gem. So thank you so much.
00;40;14;17 - 00;40;17;15
Carol Ross Barney
Thank you so much. Thank you for saying that.
00;40;17;17 - 00;40;41;15
Rob Trubia
And that wraps up another episode of GSA Does That!? a huge thank you to Chuck Hardy and Carol Ross Barney for their invaluable insights. It's clear that federal architecture isn't just about bricks and mortar, it's about the quality of our lives, our communities, and even our planet. If today's discussion sparked your curiosity or you have questions or topics you'd like us to explore in the future, don't hesitate to reach out our email addresses.
00;40;41;16 - 00;41;00;06
Rob Trubia
gsadoesthat@gsa.gov. We love hearing from you and your feedback helps us make this show even better. Don't forget to subscribe so you never miss out on the stories behind how GSA is changing the game in delivering effective and efficient government. And if you've learned something new today, consider sharing this episode with a friend or colleague.
00;41;00;09 - 00;41;15;04
Rob Trubia
Every share helps grow our community and keeps the conversation going. I'm your host, Rob Trubia. Our executive producer is the one and only Max Stempora. GSA Does That!? as a production of the U.S. General Services Administration, Office of Strategic Communication.