In the 7th episode of "GSA Does That!?" podcast, we sail into the world of lighthouses. Whether you're a lighthouse enthusiast, a history buff, or just curious about lighthouse ownership, you'll learn the inner workings of the lighthouse program and just how the next auctioned lighthouse might become yours.
Featured guests John Kelly, GSA New England Regional Director of Real Property Disposition, and Matthew Stuck, US Coast Guard Waterways Manager, provide listeners with an in-depth look into the National Historic Lighthouse Preservation Act.
Want to know more?
Look at the resources below for more information about the lighthouse program.
"GSA Does That!?" is the U.S. General Services Administration's first agency-wide podcast, offering listeners an inside look into how GSA and its partners benefit the American people. Hosted by Rob Trubia, the podcast features interviews with GSA leaders, experts, partners, and customers, covering topics such as federal real estate, acquisitions, and technology. The title reflects many's surprise at the scope of GSA's impact. At the same time, the artwork pays homage to President Harry S. Truman, who established GSA in 1949 to improve government efficiency and save taxpayer money. Whether you're a policy wonk or just curious about government operations, you can join the listener community.
For more information about the show visit, gsa.gov/podcast.
In the 7th episode of "GSA Does That!?" podcast, we sail into the world of lighthouses. Whether you're a lighthouse enthusiast, a history buff, or just curious about lighthouse ownership, you'll learn the inner workings of the lighthouse program and just how the next auctioned lighthouse might become yours.
Featured guests John Kelly, GSA New England Regional Director of Real Property Disposition, and Matthew Stuck, US Coast Guard Waterways Manager, provide listeners with an in-depth look into the National Historic Lighthouse Preservation Act.
Want to know more?
Look at the resources below for more information about the lighthouse program.
"GSA Does That!?" is the U.S. General Services Administration's first agency-wide podcast, offering listeners an inside look into how GSA and its partners benefit the American people. Hosted by Rob Trubia, the podcast features interviews with GSA leaders, experts, partners, and customers, covering topics such as federal real estate, acquisitions, and technology. The title reflects many's surprise at the scope of GSA's impact. At the same time, the artwork pays homage to President Harry S. Truman, who established GSA in 1949 to improve government efficiency and save taxpayer money. Whether you're a policy wonk or just curious about government operations, you can join the listener community.
For more information about the show visit, gsa.gov/podcast.
00;00;06;19 - 00;00;28;24
Rob Trubia
Welcome back to another episode of GSA Does That!?, the podcast that uncovers the stories behind the federal agency delivering effective and efficient government. I'm your host, Rob Trubia. And today in our seventh episode, we're talking about a topic that sparks both curiosity and fascination. Lighthouses. Have you ever peered across the coastline and wondered what it might just be like to own your own lighthouse?
00;00;28;24 - 00;00;45;29
Rob Trubia
Or perhaps you find yourself drawn to their historical significance and timeless beauty? Well, if you share our passion for lighthouses, then this is an episode you don't want to miss. Join us as we set sail with the guests that have the knowledge to make your dreams come true and make sure you know just what you might be getting yourself into.
00;00;46;01 - 00;01;07;25
Rob Trubia
Today, we're privileged to have John Kelly, the GSA New England Regional director of Real Property Disposition. John's an expert regarding the intricate process of purchasing a lighthouse from the federal government. We're also thrilled to have Matthew Stuck a waterways manager with the U.S. Coast Guard, who will share insights into the vital role lighthouses have played in maritime history and their significance in today's world.
00;01;07;27 - 00;01;28;07
Rob Trubia
And as a bonus, you'll hear a clip from a special episode We're also publishing with guest Sheila Consaul, the proud owner of Fairport Harbor West Lighthouse on Lake Erie. And here's why Sheila thinks buying a lighthouse is absolutely worth it. Sheila, you have committed a ton of hours. Years, really into renovating your lighthouse on top of the financial commitment.
00;01;28;09 - 00;01;30;20
Rob Trubia
When you add it all up, what makes it worth it to you?
00;01;30;22 - 00;02;01;04
Sheila Consaul
Oh, they're magnificent. I mean, there's nothing like them. They are so unique. They are so beloved. They're just magnificent structures. If you come to visit mine, one of the things that people are most surprised about is how well-built it is. Mine was built in a factory in Buffalo, New York, in the early 1900s, 1920s. It’s got foot thick walls.
00;02;01;04 - 00;02;25;25
Sheila Consaul
It's made of steel. It came down Lake Erie on a boat. It was raised by a cran and put on the platform that it sits on now, almost a hundred years ago. The fact that that kind of engineering and that kind of construction, you know, was done, you know, we don't do that today. I mean, we can't afford it.
00;02;25;29 - 00;02;54;26
Sheila Consaul
People don't know how to do it. Some of the beams inside, there's a chain winch that's really interesting. Just amazing pieces.The cast iron circular staircase is just gorgeous that it runs up three flights of stairs. You don't see those anymore? People don't make those people can’t construct them. So we have to save all these lighthouses.
00;02;54;26 - 00;03;25;22
Sheila Consaul
We have to. They're not being built anymore. And so if you have the passion, you have the time, you have the perseverance, and you have some extra resources. I would say go for it. So happy that GSA puts so much thought and effort into what to do with these lighthouses and really provide an opportunity to have them saved and continued and restored because so many historic buildings just get torn down.
00;03;25;22 - 00;03;28;07
Sheila Consaul
And that's very, very sad.
00;03;28;10 - 00;03;48;14
Rob Trubia
So whether you're a lighthouse enthusiast, a history buff, or simply curious about the possibilities that lie within the world of lighthouses, this episode is made for you. Tune in and prepare to be enlightened on just how the lighthouse program works and how you or your community preservation group could find yourselves with the keys to your very own lighthouse.
00;03;48;17 - 00;04;08;29
Rob Trubia
And remember, this podcast is available on all major platforms, so please be sure to subscribe. For more information about this episode and others, visit us online at gsa.gov/podcast. Matt, I know you spent years on the water. What do lighthouses mean to you as a mariner, and what do you think the allure is to so many?
00;04;09;02 - 00;04;30;01
Matt Stuck
Yeah, so, so the histories broad and deep, right? Lighthouses are part and parcel to the development of our country as a seagoing nation. I mean, to this day, 95% of the commerce that comes to and from the United States does so by water. Right. So that started early on during Western settlement as Europeans came here and others migrated.
00;04;30;01 - 00;04;54;00
Matt Stuck
And one of the first orders of business was not running ships aground. And it was critical to make sure that we had the right kinds of structures in place to to mark headlands both in ways that would cause mariners to avoid it and navigate safely around those hazards. And then conversely, to say, come to this is port X, this is port Y this is Port Z.
00;04;54;02 - 00;05;28;23
Matt Stuck
So that the days of sailing, you could essentially go north or south along the entire East coast and you could look left or look right, depending on your direction. You'd say, I am passing in Boston, I am passing Portland, I am passing Chesapeake Bay and so forth. And so that really became that the framework of of the the earliest aids to navigation system that the country has the first ever fixed aid that was built was here at Boston light off of little Brewster Island in the Boston Harbor approaches.
00;05;28;25 - 00;06;02;06
Matt Stuck
And that was back in oh gosh, 1716. And that was the site of a Revolutionary War battle. The original structure had been burned down by the British and that rebuilt and and actually it's pertinent because that very lighthouse structure now is in the process of transfer through the National Lighthouse Historic Preservation Act, through GSA. I can tell you that that for for my own experience, it it is comforting to see a light knowing that, you know, 12 miles away is 16 miles away.
00;06;02;08 - 00;06;27;26
Matt Stuck
That's Portland. I as I move around, as I do my job offshore Coast Guard, law enforcement, Coast Guard, aids to navigation programs, you know, in relative terms, how far and where you're at just by looking up and seeing these these these lights offshore. And so they still have a they still have a place today, despite the advent of a whole series of electronics that we all appreciate as mariners is still a super dangerous place.
00;06;27;26 - 00;06;40;13
Matt Stuck
Right. People often don't realize how truly potentially unsafe life at sea can be for the unprepared. And in the lighthouse structures are really part of that. That whole, you know.
00;06;40;15 - 00;06;41;09
Matt Stuck
Support system.
00;06;41;12 - 00;06;54;00
Rob Trubia
It's my understanding it's the National Historic Lighthouse Preservation Act of 2000 makes all this possible sale transfer to nonprofits, to individuals. Can you give us, John, a brief overview of the Lighthouse Preservation Act?
00;06;54;03 - 00;07;23;13
John Kelly
There were several drivers on Matt mentioned some of the technol technological advances, GPS and also solar power that allowed the lights to run on Batteries didn't require people to be in there, you know, feeding the oil into the lantern and making sure that it was constantly blinking. It no longer required to be manned for the Coast Guard to provide the aid to navigation as a result, Coast Guard license many lighthouses to local nonprofit community groups in an effort to reduce their holding costs and allow for subjective use of these were essentially vacant properties.
00;07;23;16 - 00;07;50;15
John Kelly
Then you've got a great mutually beneficial arrangement however prior to the NHLPA, a nonprofit organizations, had little or no standing to acquire lighthouses under the traditional disposal process, which is very unfortunate because many of these groups are community and preservation, are invested significant capital and sweat equity to restore or maintain these assets during the license period. And if Coast Guard decides dispose of the lights, which was beginning to happen on a more regular basis, these groups had no way to benefit.
00;07;50;18 - 00;08;16;24
John Kelly
So to address this issue, and to acknowledged a significant role that lighthouses played in American history, Congress passed the National historic lighthouse Preservation Act of 2000, commonly referred to as the NHLPA. It's very important that the Congress decide to amend the National Preservation act of 1966, not the Traditional Property Act Disposition process. Again highlighted the importance of preserving these landmarks in perpetuity.
00;08;16;26 - 00;08;45;14
John Kelly
The NHLPA recognized, the significance of historic lighthouses of maritime traffic, coastal communities, not for profit organizations and lighthouse enthusiasts. It gives priorities to public bodies and nonprofit corporations to acquire a historic lighthouse at no cost through a competitive, merit based application process. Goal to convey to lighthouses the new loan owners who will preserve their historic cultural, recreational and educational value in perpetuity.
00;08;45;17 - 00;09;10;17
John Kelly
The program is a long standing partnership amongst the Coast Guard, National Park Service and GSA. Under the NHLPA, lighthouses may be transferred to no cost. Federal agencies, state and local governments, nonprofit corporations, educational agencies and community development organizations. The entities must agree to comply with conditions set forth in the bill and the number one be financially able to maintain the historic lighthouse.
00;09;10;20 - 00;09;35;18
John Kelly
Sure as many, you know, a free lighthouse is not a cheap lighthouse becomes a significant burdens in a way a cost. An entity must also make the property available to the general public at reasonable times, under reasonable conditions. And if the entity is not identified, the NHLPA does authorize GSA to conduct a competitive sale of the lighthouse, which is typically done through an online auction.
00;09;35;20 - 00;09;45;25
John Kelly
If sold, the restrictions are generally limited to historic preservation only, and the new owner is not compelled to require public access, although many often do.
00;09;45;28 - 00;09;58;03
Rob Trubia
Now, that's that's helpful. And I'm curious, Matt, is it the Coast Guard that decides this is a lighthouse we no longer need? What do you do? Do you contact GSA and say, hey, we want to sell this, We don't want it anymore. How does it work?
00;09;58;06 - 00;10;24;02
Matt Stuck
Yeah. So as John was was saying at the beginning, one of the ways that that the Coast Guard makes a determination about whether or not the the property is overhead value, it's costs, it's it's desire, the services desire to make sure that property is adequately maintained. I mean, there's 780, give or take, lighthouses nationwide that are that we might consider to be historic lighthouses.
00;10;24;04 - 00;10;49;15
Matt Stuck
John mentioned the number of that are in Michigan alone. We have about 220 or so here in that northern New Jersey, New York and New England area. Given the type of, frankly, high quality construction ingenuity, various and diverse architectural styles over basically a century and a half, two centuries. There's a lot of overhead that comes with those entire families were needed to take care of them.
00;10;49;15 - 00;11;24;09
Matt Stuck
They came with light keepers, quarters, sometimes assistant keepers and light keepers quarters, and that really drove cisterns, generators, I mean, all kinds of as technology of all, you know, the opportunity and the expertise required by the light keepers evolved until we really got to a tipping point at which we could build structures with with galvanized steel, with the with essentially skeletal structures and platforms on top guide wires, and frankly, make them easier to maintain, less expensive to construct in the first place.
00;11;24;12 - 00;12;00;05
Matt Stuck
And and you overlay that with the advent of light emitting diode led technology, right, where now the lamps don't even have to get changed with the same type of frequency that they did back in the day. Forget about whale oil, forget about diesel fuel and kerosene. Forget about like, we're just like really moving forward now. And now we have self-contained lights with lithium batteries and solar panels and and are in many cases almost as bright or brighter than some of the beautiful fernels and these other artifacts that the Coast Guard had used for a long time, too, to mark these headlands.
00;12;00;07 - 00;12;21;29
Matt Stuck
Technology was helpful. The overhead was was massive and has been massive. And it's not right to have these properties be fallow for too long, particularly for an organization like the Coast Guard that, you know, post-9-11 in particular has just taken on a whole series of other mission areas outside of of maritime transportation safety, which is still one of our top priorities.
00;12;21;29 - 00;12;44;02
Matt Stuck
But but we have so many other roles now as well. And the Coast Guard hasn't grown very much so. So comes time to make difficult decisions and choices about the value of that property. How what's the Coast Guard might use? It does for housing, does it need? And once we've made that determination through the real estate program, leaders on the civil engineering side of the Coast Guard, that's when they will reach out.
00;12;44;02 - 00;12;57;22
Matt Stuck
Once, once an operational commander said, I don't think we need this property anymore. We need the light, we need the sound signal, we need emergency light, but we don't need the property anymore. Let's get a hold of our our engineering team and they'll work with our friends at GSA.
00;12;57;24 - 00;13;14;18
Rob Trubia
That's interesting. It seems like it's a win win for the government because I think what you're saying is, correct me if I'm wrong, is you relinquish ownership of the actual structure of the lighthouse. You don't no longer have to maintain it, but you actually still get the use of the lamp of the beacon.
00;13;14;21 - 00;13;40;14
Matt Stuck
That's right. Yeah. The beacon that the the essential need of whether or not a sound signal is critical, whether or not a primary optic or a backup light is essential. The range and distance that it needs to project over the water, the kind of stakeholders that are going to be using that, that's a very separate process, right? That deals with the local notice to mariners that deals with with the very regimented public outreach and engagement process.
00;13;40;14 - 00;14;02;07
Matt Stuck
Before we make operational decisions about the navigation infrastructure. How we give those signals to the public is, is we can be done a lot of different ways. So we definitely treat them as separate questions and as a result, we always maintain the appropriate easements and responsibilities that the GSA supports when they write deeds and they conduct that debt transfer.
00;14;02;14 - 00;14;20;25
Rob Trubia
So, John, if what does it look like when you're selling, let's just say this is going to an individual or I guess it could be to a nonprofit when GSA is conducting this transaction, taking care of all these details, Part of the contract must be, hey, we have an easement. The government can still come on. How does that all work?
00;14;20;25 - 00;14;29;23
Rob Trubia
Do they have to make an appointment? Do they have to let you know they're coming to they can show up whenever they need. What's that? What's that cooperation look like between the new owner and the government?
00;14;29;25 - 00;14;50;04
John Kelly
Well,as Matt said. I mean, critical to the conveyance is the aid to navigation remains active, that is our primary concern, that we did not do anything to interfere with the ability for the Coast Guard to deliver that mission. So we retain whatever rights are necessary to allow the Coast Guard. I mean, they'll give notice when a reasonable but at this an emergency situation that they have to go fix the light, it's too late and they're going to have to fix the light.
00;14;50;06 - 00;15;00;20
John Kelly
That's part and parcel of the expectation of the program. We communicate that to all potential bidders through public sale or through that. No cost conveyance that is clearly understood by all.
00;15;00;22 - 00;15;15;24
Rob Trubia
So, John, my understanding is there's three primary agencies when it comes to Lighthouse transfer. You've got the Coast Guard. We're talking to Matt about that. Then you've got the National Park Service and GSA. Can you tell us what is each one of their roles and particularly maybe expand a little bit on GSA?
00;15;15;26 - 00;15;41;26
John Kelly
Sure. Happily. So it's been a very successful partnership. We've enjoyed a significant level of cooperation, coordination and communication between all three agencies, which I think is a significant factor in the partnership's success and GSA perspective. You know, we basically act as a real estate broker, facilitate to transfer the lighthouse from the Coast Guard to the owner in that role will review the title and other real estate due diligence information provided by the Coast Guard, which could be fascinating.
00;15;41;28 - 00;16;06;16
John Kelly
Matt mentioned the Boston Harbor Light, I believe that Light was commissioned by George Washington or John Adams. I mean, these lighthouses go back to the beginning of country. So you're going back. You're looking through deeds and title documents that come from the king. It can be rather fascinating bringing that to the real estate. You'll find yourself going down, rabbit trails out to rabbit trails, looking at some of these up lighthouse title documents once to satisfy.
00;16;06;16 - 00;16;30;08
John Kelly
We have sufficient information and we can describe what were the asset and what are restrictions. Are there other consideration that need to take into account? By any loaner? We would announce the availability of allows by issuing a notice of availability. We would then organize site inspections for interested parties and put boots on the ground and take a look at the light and get a better understanding of what it is or could possibly be taking on.
00;16;30;11 - 00;16;55;15
John Kelly
We would develop sale terms of conditions and manage the competitive sale. If the Park Service does not make a selection for a no cost applicant. We also have the role of executing all the real estate conveyance documents. We signed deeds, we signed grant easements. We also cooperate with the National Park Service to to to address any noncompliance issues that may arise after a no cost conceyance.
00;16;55;18 - 00;17;24;28
John Kelly
So as we go down the Coast Guard, I think Matt did a great job illustrating their role, they determine which light house they no longer need to own to execute the aid to navigation mission. The National Park Service typically playing on their core expertise. They determine the application criteria for a no cost transfer. They provide the application to available entities, they review all applications, and if they approve an application, they formally request the GSA to convey the light to a selected entity.
00;17;25;01 - 00;17;34;12
John Kelly
They also a very important role of marketing the Lighthouse post conveyance to ensure compliance with the approved application. So it really is a partnership with each organization.
00;17;34;14 - 00;17;49;21
Rob Trubia
John Who decides if a lighthouse is not going to go for free to a nonprofit, an agency, or, you know, a local town if it's going to go to an individual who decides what it what it sells for, Does GSA put a price on that?
00;17;49;23 - 00;18;04;05
John Kelly
We would run it through an auction process. I think anyone who's involved with lighthouses, they're very difficult to find a comparable. Take Boston Harbor light. I'm not sure how you would even ask an appraiser to go out there and put a value. I'm sure they'd be happy to, you know, take your money and give you a value.
00;18;04;05 - 00;18;14;02
John Kelly
But at the end of the day, we look for the market to decide. We believe we've had robust bidding during the auction process, and we feel that that's probably the best indicator.
00;18;14;04 - 00;18;22;10
Rob Trubia
And is this a particularly active year for lighthouses? It seems like it might be.
00;18;22;13 - 00;18;46;14
John Kelly
It’s been a very active year. Perhaps our busiest to date, in large part due to the extensive media coverage this program has received locally, regionally, nationally and internationally. We’ve had calls from all over the world coming in. It just seems that it really demonstrates the broad level of interest that continues these historic landmarks. It always amazes me the amount of interest that people have in Lighthouse even folks from Canada may never see light.
00;18;46;18 - 00;19;10;03
John Kelly
They're like they still seem to have some attraction. Romantic nature of the lighthouse. So in May of this year, GSA issued notices for six historic lighthouses in five states. As I mentioned earlier, the notice informs the other about the opportunity to acquire the lighthouse at no cost, and the interested parties were able to 60 days from the date of that now were to expressed interest in acquiring a lighthouse.
00;19;10;05 - 00;19;40;21
John Kelly
Those lighthouse is included to Lynn Point Lighthouse in Old Saybrook area inlet to Fenwick Conneticut. The Nobska lighthouse, which is on Falmouth Road race in Woods Hole, Massachusetts. The Gurnett Lighthouse in Plymouth, Massachusetts. Warwick Neck light in scenic Warwick, Rhode Island and the Little Mark Island Monument Harpswell, Maine. And then dare I deviate from the New England theme here, we're going out to Erie Harbor, North Pier Lighthouse in Erie, Pennsylvania.
00;19;40;23 - 00;20;07;22
John Kelly
Those are all lighthouse is being made at be available at no cost as I mentioned earlier where the park service will add the primary role in deciding whether or not an applicant is suitable for a no cost transfer. They've all generated significant interest and the Park Service has provided applications but will be providing applications to a number of interested parties and over the next few months they will be reviewing those applications and if they approve an application, they will request GSA to transfer the property to that.
00;20;07;22 - 00;20;11;18
Rob Trubia
And there are a couple of lighthouses as well on Long Island Sound.
00;20;11;20 - 00;20;38;21
John Kelly
Yeah. We're currently offering the following lighthouses for sale by online auction that they've gone through the NOAA process with no applicants being selected by the interior. So we're offering the sale, the Penfield Reef Lighthouse in Sheffield, Connecticut, which is sound Stratford Shoal light and east set pocket New York are both within the Long Island Sound area. Now we're also rocking the Cleveland Harbor West Pier Headlight in Cleveland, Ohio.
00;20;38;24 - 00;20;47;09
John Kelly
And the Keweenaw Waterway Lower Entrance Light in Chaz Isle, Michigan. Those are all off for sale via online auction.
00;20;47;11 - 00;20;55;16
Rob Trubia
Well, Matt, why is it such an active year, do you know? I mean, is there is the Coast Guard going, hey, it's time to get rid of some of these?
00;20;55;18 - 00;21;18;00
Matt Stuck
Yeah, Rob, I, I the way that John was. Explain the process. It made me, you know, sort of include some of the realities of what we face. So even the lighthouses themselves based on their location, whether they're on water abutting water, they have large pieces of property or not, are often very desirable for agency partners to pick up very quickly because it dovetails very well with their missions.
00;21;18;00 - 00;21;47;01
Matt Stuck
National Park Service is a great example. A lot of state agencies that deal with with recreation, with that with preservation of the environment and the location of these properties. The idea that there is there's buildings, there's plumbing, there's electrical, there's there's things that that work effectively for them to be able to stage their teams to to execute their mission, even as the Coast Guard continues to to perform its navigation safety mission, I think makes a lot of them very desirable.
00;21;47;01 - 00;22;13;14
Matt Stuck
They could take and quickly they never to public auction. I think over time some of them that are maybe more remote or more challenging to reach, those are may often come up for sale because they don't dovetail sort of naturally with the mission of a local stakeholder partner. They don't benefit from a natural friends type group preservation type group.
00;22;13;16 - 00;22;36;02
Matt Stuck
A lot of our lighthouses, I mean, you know, out of the 200 some odd that are just in the first district up here in the extreme northeast, we have the majority of them on the National Register of Historic Places. There's 12 lighthouses that are actually national historic landmarks, including Boston Light, Montauk Point Light and some others just in our neck of the woods.
00;22;36;04 - 00;23;11;11
Matt Stuck
Well, those ones really do go a little more quickly because of their location or because they they, again, have natural connection to these other groups. And then as you go down that list, some of them are very difficult to access and that sort of becomes more challenging, I think. And that's when you get you sort of get down to that sale piece that, you know, and I'd like, you know, John, I don't know if I characterize that completely correctly, but but, you know, it seems just from kind of outside looking in as as we've been dealing with our properties for a while, that that that's kind of a natural outcome of all this.
00;23;11;14 - 00;23;27;06
John Kelly
I think you're absolutely right. I think some of the more desirable sites to land base flights, certainly that are more likely to go at no cost and through a public sale and some are offshore flights that are more challenging as far as access seasonally getting out to it tend to go, which was a sale.
00;23;27;12 - 00;23;41;06
Rob Trubia
So will all light houses eventually be no longer owned by the government? I mean, Matt, does the Coast Guard say, we're never letting that one go, We're never letting that one go, or eventually are there going to be going to GSA to be sold?
00;23;41;08 - 00;24;09;23
Matt Stuck
Yeah. So that's good. That's a good question, Rob. You know, again, a lot of it depends on the Coast Guard's organic use of the property itself. We have lighthouses that abut Coast Guard stations that abut moorings for Coast Guard cutters that might serve as government housing for Coast Guard families. So there are a lot of ways in which the Coast Guard need out for its people, for its other missions outside of just providing a signal to mariners causes to retain properties.
00;24;09;24 - 00;24;28;00
Matt Stuck
While we do net, definitely not something that we do lightly in any way, shape or form. In fact, if anything, we probably spend a lot more time sort of going back and forth and looking at the different arguments as to why we should keep or why we should we should recommended for divestiture through NHLPA, then then maybe we should all the time.
00;24;28;00 - 00;24;55;01
Matt Stuck
We do that because we we want to make sure we're getting an answer right there. I do think that that what is clear is that we can do to technology, produce and construct light structures, towers, ranges that are that are bright, they're capable, they're efficient, they're inexpensive, they're most definitely not nostalgic. They don't fit the mold and they're not nostalgic, right John?
00;24;55;04 - 00;25;21;12
Matt Stuck
They fit the mold. I think they fit the mold. They don't fit the mold of America's castles, right? I mean, you can really think of the modder of the lighthouse of the last couple centuries as and this is very much the way preservation groups view it as they should, because they're they're unique and they're precious, and they're some of the earliest signs of ingenuity by a very young country that was trying to move itself forward.
00;25;21;14 - 00;25;39;03
Matt Stuck
And so the nostalgia is real. The NAV safety importance is still real but when we build them now. We do so with the long view in mind, and we leverage pretty much every aspect of our civil engineering and marine engineering. Get our hands on.
00;25;39;06 - 00;25;54;03
Rob Trubia
John, What are what are some success stories that you've seen with with good sales, whether they've been to a preservation group or to an individual? Can you share any stories with us that it's just been it really worked out well and it's really exciting to see what's happened to the light house.
00;25;54;05 - 00;26;19;12
John Kelly
When we first one on the call, Matt was mentioning Gayhead, and I certainly think that was a tremendous example of how the Lighthouse bill was very helpful on Martha's Vineyard. It was conveyed to a local partnership between the town of a [inaudible] and a nonprofit preservation group. A real success story, The Lighthouse was situated, a long an erroding shoreline, and that threatened the long term stability of a tower that the town and its partners.
00;26;19;18 - 00;26;39;18
John Kelly
They embarked on a multi-year effort to acquire light and then ultimately fund its multimillion dollar relocation away from the cliffs. And as a result, it remains an active aid to navigation today, and there's a top tourist destination on the isle. And Matt, I know you were very much involved in that and we had a number of folks involved, but they had a it went on for years.
00;26;39;18 - 00;27;05;10
John Kelly
They had campaigns. Ad marathons are running any number of things. Bake sales generate funds for this. And it really became one of the most exciting things happening on Martha's Vineyard at the time that you just sense of how important the lighthouse is not only to the local community, but the island is swell, the tourist base. And I guess at the risk of appearing partial to New England lighthouses, which I am, I think the offshore New London Ledge light was also a success story.
00;27;05;13 - 00;27;30;06
John Kelly
A beautiful and distinct lighthouse. This square brick building with a mansard roof in a circle and some room not the typical conical tower of so many associated lighthouses. It's conveyed at no cost to the New London Maritime Museum, who actually worked with other nonprofit organizations to showcase that lighthouse and also taking advantage of its strategic location within a few miles of probably another half dozen lighthouses.
00;27;30;06 - 00;27;52;22
John Kelly
So they they work together with other groups, US split costs, and they offer interpretive tours on a regular basis to the public. And what schoolchildren you mentioned sails on from a sail perspective. Again, staying in New England, I think the Graves Lighthouse Perilous Light, located nine miles from Boston on the outermost island and Boston Harbor, stands by it 113 feet high.
00;27;52;22 - 00;28;16;05
John Kelly
Big granite block. It marks the entrance to the North Channel are the first thing mariners would see as they approached Boston Harbor. I mean, sold in 2013 via the online auction and the high bid exceeded $900,000, one of the highest amount paid for a lighthouse to date. It was bought by a local couple, which we love. The locals buy it who made substantial improvement, and they use it as a family getaway.
00;28;16;08 - 00;28;37;21
John Kelly
So certainly not online and research. That's fascinating. They've documented all the improvements they made it and back to Connecticut to find a lot of yes I would talk to my sale perspective was the Saber Break Water lighthouse sold the online auction in 2015. It's the lighthouse that is prominently featured on the Connecticut license plates. Every video through Connecticut you see a lighthouse lighthouse on the actual license plate.
00;28;37;23 - 00;28;44;01
John Kelly
It is a saber breakwater light about 48 feet in height, and it's over 135 years old.
00;28;44;04 - 00;28;55;26
Rob Trubia
What do you tell Jon? What do you tell people that are seriously at that point where they're about to make that final decision to write that check? Is there a buyer beware? What kind of advice do you have for potential owners?
00;28;55;28 - 00;29;22;26
John Kelly
Understand that you're taking on what many may see as a liability and is a romantic notion of lighthouses. But as Matt, as alluded to, the capital requirement to maintain these lighthouses in a safe manner. So we always caution them to bring out experts. We we encourage them when they come out for insight inspection, to bring architects, they bring professionals who could speak and understand what they possibly get themselves involved in.
00;29;22;28 - 00;29;30;02
Rob Trubia
When the lighthouse goes up for auction. How much time are we looking at from when you maybe put your first bid in to when you get the keys?
00;29;30;04 - 00;29;44;03
John Kelly
I would say probably about 120 days. You know, usually that is come out of the eBay auction. The bidding act is determined to stay closed day. So for a very popular light, it could go on for months, for less populated, it could close to 30 days.
00;29;44;06 - 00;30;05;15
Rob Trubia
Well, that's pretty quick. Quicker than I thought. Yeah. Yeah, that's it's really neat. It's a it's a really neat partnership, not just between the government agencies, but between the the towns, the different historic preservation societies, individuals. It sounds like everyone is getting together. Everyone believes they're beautiful, everyone thinks they're just captivating and they want to see them preserved.
00;30;05;18 - 00;30;20;09
Rob Trubia
That's right. So, you know, I mean, whether you're in the Coast Guard or just somebody that lives in that area or you're visiting, they're just they're really beautiful. I mean, you talked about 780 and in the country and we've had how many, John? 150 have been sold in 50.
00;30;20;09 - 00;30;29;17
John Kelly
And of those, the current NHLPA. Prior to the NHLPA there were there were other initiatives. The Maine lights program was maybe a dozen light. Matt correct me if I’m wrong.
00;30;29;20 - 00;30;30;08
Matt Stuck
Right about.
00;30;30;08 - 00;30;51;19
John Kelly
Yeah. Yeah. And I know prior to that lighthouses would come in port access like other other properties and again, not affording nonprofit standing And I really want to echo Matt’s point that nonprofit community with probably the largest driver I'm getting this bill that they were really forceful in getting to Congress and lobbying on on behalf of the nonprofits because they really had no standing.
00;30;51;23 - 00;31;22;21
John Kelly
And yet they were making all these investments and the heart was in the right place. But the end of the day, it's Coast Guard access to that property or the GSA. We would have no ability to reward or acknowledge all the work they'd done up until that point. So this bill really does create an equal playing field, unlike the traditional Property Act process that would afford a special standing to the feds or to a state or to a local community over a nonprofit nonprofit is going to compete equally with these entities, which is a real departure from the normal disposal process.
00;31;22;21 - 00;31;34;11
John Kelly
Again, running on a preservation goal of the bill, not about making money, not about dumping property, it's about finding the way position these properties for long term preservation.
00;31;34;14 - 00;31;46;23
Rob Trubia
It's neat. It's I think people just really care. They really care about these structures. They want to see them preserved. So John, before we close out, where do our listeners find lighthouses listed for sale by GSA?
00;31;46;25 - 00;32;02;18
John Kelly
It'd be remiss not to advertise our realestatesales.gov page, which at the interest of listeners are at, just seeking lighthouses or other properties GSA has for sale. I recommend they visit their website The listing of the four lighthouses I mentioned this as well as other properties GSA is currently offering.
00;32;02;21 - 00;32;05;05
Rob Trubia
What is that URL John?
00;32;05;07 - 00;32;09;01
John Kelly
realestatesales.gov
00;32;09;03 - 00;32;29;16
Rob Trubia
Thank you both. I really appreciate the great conversation. I really sense a some real passion for lighthouses from both of you. It's not just a job. It's really very much a mission, which I think is great. And it's just neat to see something that so many people get behind. Really. I've never met anybody that didn't think there were beautiful structures, that they weren't captivating, that they weren't fascinating.
00;32;29;18 - 00;32;53;11
Rob Trubia
And that brings us to the end of this conversation on GSA. Does That!? We hope you enjoyed our time with GSA's John Kelly and U.S. Coast Guard Representative Matthew Stuck. Throughout this episode, we've learned about the fascinating history and significance of lighthouses, how they're managed and preserved through the National Historic Lighthouse Preservation Act and the incredible opportunities available to those who dream of owning one of their very own.
00;32;53;13 - 00;33;18;13
Rob Trubia
From guiding sailors through treacherous waters to standing as symbols of resilience and hope, lighthouses hold a special place in the hearts of many. And if you enjoyed what you heard today, don't forget to check out our bonus episode, where we continue the conversation with lighthouse owner Sheila Consaul, the owner of Fairport Harbor West Lighthouse. Sheila shares her inspiring story and offers tips and advice for those of you who might be dreaming of owning a piece of America's nautical heritage.
00;33;18;16 - 00;33;41;12
Rob Trubia
Hey, if you enjoyed this episode, please be sure to subscribe to GSA Does That!?. And for more information, visit gsa.gov/podcast. Or to suggest the top of your host, send us an email at gsadoesthat@gsa.gov. I'm your host Rob Trubia. Our executive producer is the one and only Max Stempora GSA Does That!? is a production of the U.S. General Services Administration, Office of Strategic Communications.
00;00;06;19 - 00;00;28;24
Rob Trubia
Welcome back to another episode of GSA Does That!?, the podcast that uncovers the stories behind the federal agency delivering effective and efficient government. I'm your host, Rob Trubia. And today in our seventh episode, we're talking about a topic that sparks both curiosity and fascination. Lighthouses. Have you ever peered across the coastline and wondered what it might just be like to own your own lighthouse?
00;00;28;24 - 00;00;45;29
Rob Trubia
Or perhaps you find yourself drawn to their historical significance and timeless beauty? Well, if you share our passion for lighthouses, then this is an episode you don't want to miss. Join us as we set sail with the guests that have the knowledge to make your dreams come true and make sure you know just what you might be getting yourself into.
00;00;46;01 - 00;01;07;25
Rob Trubia
Today, we're privileged to have John Kelly, the GSA New England Regional director of Real Property Disposition. John's an expert regarding the intricate process of purchasing a lighthouse from the federal government. We're also thrilled to have Matthew Stuck a waterways manager with the U.S. Coast Guard, who will share insights into the vital role lighthouses have played in maritime history and their significance in today's world.
00;01;07;27 - 00;01;28;07
Rob Trubia
And as a bonus, you'll hear a clip from a special episode We're also publishing with guest Sheila Consaul, the proud owner of Fairport Harbor West Lighthouse on Lake Erie. And here's why Sheila thinks buying a lighthouse is absolutely worth it. Sheila, you have committed a ton of hours. Years, really into renovating your lighthouse on top of the financial commitment.
00;01;28;09 - 00;01;30;20
Rob Trubia
When you add it all up, what makes it worth it to you?
00;01;30;22 - 00;02;01;04
Sheila Consaul
Oh, they're magnificent. I mean, there's nothing like them. They are so unique. They are so beloved. They're just magnificent structures. If you come to visit mine, one of the things that people are most surprised about is how well-built it is. Mine was built in a factory in Buffalo, New York, in the early 1900s, 1920s. It’s got foot thick walls.
00;02;01;04 - 00;02;25;25
Sheila Consaul
It's made of steel. It came down Lake Erie on a boat. It was raised by a cran and put on the platform that it sits on now, almost a hundred years ago. The fact that that kind of engineering and that kind of construction, you know, was done, you know, we don't do that today. I mean, we can't afford it.
00;02;25;29 - 00;02;54;26
Sheila Consaul
People don't know how to do it. Some of the beams inside, there's a chain winch that's really interesting. Just amazing pieces.The cast iron circular staircase is just gorgeous that it runs up three flights of stairs. You don't see those anymore? People don't make those people can’t construct them. So we have to save all these lighthouses.
00;02;54;26 - 00;03;25;22
Sheila Consaul
We have to. They're not being built anymore. And so if you have the passion, you have the time, you have the perseverance, and you have some extra resources. I would say go for it. So happy that GSA puts so much thought and effort into what to do with these lighthouses and really provide an opportunity to have them saved and continued and restored because so many historic buildings just get torn down.
00;03;25;22 - 00;03;28;07
Sheila Consaul
And that's very, very sad.
00;03;28;10 - 00;03;48;14
Rob Trubia
So whether you're a lighthouse enthusiast, a history buff, or simply curious about the possibilities that lie within the world of lighthouses, this episode is made for you. Tune in and prepare to be enlightened on just how the lighthouse program works and how you or your community preservation group could find yourselves with the keys to your very own lighthouse.
00;03;48;17 - 00;04;08;29
Rob Trubia
And remember, this podcast is available on all major platforms, so please be sure to subscribe. For more information about this episode and others, visit us online at gsa.gov/podcast. Matt, I know you spent years on the water. What do lighthouses mean to you as a mariner, and what do you think the allure is to so many?
00;04;09;02 - 00;04;30;01
Matt Stuck
Yeah, so, so the histories broad and deep, right? Lighthouses are part and parcel to the development of our country as a seagoing nation. I mean, to this day, 95% of the commerce that comes to and from the United States does so by water. Right. So that started early on during Western settlement as Europeans came here and others migrated.
00;04;30;01 - 00;04;54;00
Matt Stuck
And one of the first orders of business was not running ships aground. And it was critical to make sure that we had the right kinds of structures in place to to mark headlands both in ways that would cause mariners to avoid it and navigate safely around those hazards. And then conversely, to say, come to this is port X, this is port Y this is Port Z.
00;04;54;02 - 00;05;28;23
Matt Stuck
So that the days of sailing, you could essentially go north or south along the entire East coast and you could look left or look right, depending on your direction. You'd say, I am passing in Boston, I am passing Portland, I am passing Chesapeake Bay and so forth. And so that really became that the framework of of the the earliest aids to navigation system that the country has the first ever fixed aid that was built was here at Boston light off of little Brewster Island in the Boston Harbor approaches.
00;05;28;25 - 00;06;02;06
Matt Stuck
And that was back in oh gosh, 1716. And that was the site of a Revolutionary War battle. The original structure had been burned down by the British and that rebuilt and and actually it's pertinent because that very lighthouse structure now is in the process of transfer through the National Lighthouse Historic Preservation Act, through GSA. I can tell you that that for for my own experience, it it is comforting to see a light knowing that, you know, 12 miles away is 16 miles away.
00;06;02;08 - 00;06;27;26
Matt Stuck
That's Portland. I as I move around, as I do my job offshore Coast Guard, law enforcement, Coast Guard, aids to navigation programs, you know, in relative terms, how far and where you're at just by looking up and seeing these these these lights offshore. And so they still have a they still have a place today, despite the advent of a whole series of electronics that we all appreciate as mariners is still a super dangerous place.
00;06;27;26 - 00;06;40;13
Matt Stuck
Right. People often don't realize how truly potentially unsafe life at sea can be for the unprepared. And in the lighthouse structures are really part of that. That whole, you know.
00;06;40;15 - 00;06;41;09
Matt Stuck
Support system.
00;06;41;12 - 00;06;54;00
Rob Trubia
It's my understanding it's the National Historic Lighthouse Preservation Act of 2000 makes all this possible sale transfer to nonprofits, to individuals. Can you give us, John, a brief overview of the Lighthouse Preservation Act?
00;06;54;03 - 00;07;23;13
John Kelly
There were several drivers on Matt mentioned some of the technol technological advances, GPS and also solar power that allowed the lights to run on Batteries didn't require people to be in there, you know, feeding the oil into the lantern and making sure that it was constantly blinking. It no longer required to be manned for the Coast Guard to provide the aid to navigation as a result, Coast Guard license many lighthouses to local nonprofit community groups in an effort to reduce their holding costs and allow for subjective use of these were essentially vacant properties.
00;07;23;16 - 00;07;50;15
John Kelly
Then you've got a great mutually beneficial arrangement however prior to the NHLPA, a nonprofit organizations, had little or no standing to acquire lighthouses under the traditional disposal process, which is very unfortunate because many of these groups are community and preservation, are invested significant capital and sweat equity to restore or maintain these assets during the license period. And if Coast Guard decides dispose of the lights, which was beginning to happen on a more regular basis, these groups had no way to benefit.
00;07;50;18 - 00;08;16;24
John Kelly
So to address this issue, and to acknowledged a significant role that lighthouses played in American history, Congress passed the National historic lighthouse Preservation Act of 2000, commonly referred to as the NHLPA. It's very important that the Congress decide to amend the National Preservation act of 1966, not the Traditional Property Act Disposition process. Again highlighted the importance of preserving these landmarks in perpetuity.
00;08;16;26 - 00;08;45;14
John Kelly
The NHLPA recognized, the significance of historic lighthouses of maritime traffic, coastal communities, not for profit organizations and lighthouse enthusiasts. It gives priorities to public bodies and nonprofit corporations to acquire a historic lighthouse at no cost through a competitive, merit based application process. Goal to convey to lighthouses the new loan owners who will preserve their historic cultural, recreational and educational value in perpetuity.
00;08;45;17 - 00;09;10;17
John Kelly
The program is a long standing partnership amongst the Coast Guard, National Park Service and GSA. Under the NHLPA, lighthouses may be transferred to no cost. Federal agencies, state and local governments, nonprofit corporations, educational agencies and community development organizations. The entities must agree to comply with conditions set forth in the bill and the number one be financially able to maintain the historic lighthouse.
00;09;10;20 - 00;09;35;18
John Kelly
Sure as many, you know, a free lighthouse is not a cheap lighthouse becomes a significant burdens in a way a cost. An entity must also make the property available to the general public at reasonable times, under reasonable conditions. And if the entity is not identified, the NHLPA does authorize GSA to conduct a competitive sale of the lighthouse, which is typically done through an online auction.
00;09;35;20 - 00;09;45;25
John Kelly
If sold, the restrictions are generally limited to historic preservation only, and the new owner is not compelled to require public access, although many often do.
00;09;45;28 - 00;09;58;03
Rob Trubia
Now, that's that's helpful. And I'm curious, Matt, is it the Coast Guard that decides this is a lighthouse we no longer need? What do you do? Do you contact GSA and say, hey, we want to sell this, We don't want it anymore. How does it work?
00;09;58;06 - 00;10;24;02
Matt Stuck
Yeah. So as John was was saying at the beginning, one of the ways that that the Coast Guard makes a determination about whether or not the the property is overhead value, it's costs, it's it's desire, the services desire to make sure that property is adequately maintained. I mean, there's 780, give or take, lighthouses nationwide that are that we might consider to be historic lighthouses.
00;10;24;04 - 00;10;49;15
Matt Stuck
John mentioned the number of that are in Michigan alone. We have about 220 or so here in that northern New Jersey, New York and New England area. Given the type of, frankly, high quality construction ingenuity, various and diverse architectural styles over basically a century and a half, two centuries. There's a lot of overhead that comes with those entire families were needed to take care of them.
00;10;49;15 - 00;11;24;09
Matt Stuck
They came with light keepers, quarters, sometimes assistant keepers and light keepers quarters, and that really drove cisterns, generators, I mean, all kinds of as technology of all, you know, the opportunity and the expertise required by the light keepers evolved until we really got to a tipping point at which we could build structures with with galvanized steel, with the with essentially skeletal structures and platforms on top guide wires, and frankly, make them easier to maintain, less expensive to construct in the first place.
00;11;24;12 - 00;12;00;05
Matt Stuck
And and you overlay that with the advent of light emitting diode led technology, right, where now the lamps don't even have to get changed with the same type of frequency that they did back in the day. Forget about whale oil, forget about diesel fuel and kerosene. Forget about like, we're just like really moving forward now. And now we have self-contained lights with lithium batteries and solar panels and and are in many cases almost as bright or brighter than some of the beautiful fernels and these other artifacts that the Coast Guard had used for a long time, too, to mark these headlands.
00;12;00;07 - 00;12;21;29
Matt Stuck
Technology was helpful. The overhead was was massive and has been massive. And it's not right to have these properties be fallow for too long, particularly for an organization like the Coast Guard that, you know, post-9-11 in particular has just taken on a whole series of other mission areas outside of of maritime transportation safety, which is still one of our top priorities.
00;12;21;29 - 00;12;44;02
Matt Stuck
But but we have so many other roles now as well. And the Coast Guard hasn't grown very much so. So comes time to make difficult decisions and choices about the value of that property. How what's the Coast Guard might use? It does for housing, does it need? And once we've made that determination through the real estate program, leaders on the civil engineering side of the Coast Guard, that's when they will reach out.
00;12;44;02 - 00;12;57;22
Matt Stuck
Once, once an operational commander said, I don't think we need this property anymore. We need the light, we need the sound signal, we need emergency light, but we don't need the property anymore. Let's get a hold of our our engineering team and they'll work with our friends at GSA.
00;12;57;24 - 00;13;14;18
Rob Trubia
That's interesting. It seems like it's a win win for the government because I think what you're saying is, correct me if I'm wrong, is you relinquish ownership of the actual structure of the lighthouse. You don't no longer have to maintain it, but you actually still get the use of the lamp of the beacon.
00;13;14;21 - 00;13;40;14
Matt Stuck
That's right. Yeah. The beacon that the the essential need of whether or not a sound signal is critical, whether or not a primary optic or a backup light is essential. The range and distance that it needs to project over the water, the kind of stakeholders that are going to be using that, that's a very separate process, right? That deals with the local notice to mariners that deals with with the very regimented public outreach and engagement process.
00;13;40;14 - 00;14;02;07
Matt Stuck
Before we make operational decisions about the navigation infrastructure. How we give those signals to the public is, is we can be done a lot of different ways. So we definitely treat them as separate questions and as a result, we always maintain the appropriate easements and responsibilities that the GSA supports when they write deeds and they conduct that debt transfer.
00;14;02;14 - 00;14;20;25
Rob Trubia
So, John, if what does it look like when you're selling, let's just say this is going to an individual or I guess it could be to a nonprofit when GSA is conducting this transaction, taking care of all these details, Part of the contract must be, hey, we have an easement. The government can still come on. How does that all work?
00;14;20;25 - 00;14;29;23
Rob Trubia
Do they have to make an appointment? Do they have to let you know they're coming to they can show up whenever they need. What's that? What's that cooperation look like between the new owner and the government?
00;14;29;25 - 00;14;50;04
John Kelly
Well,as Matt said. I mean, critical to the conveyance is the aid to navigation remains active, that is our primary concern, that we did not do anything to interfere with the ability for the Coast Guard to deliver that mission. So we retain whatever rights are necessary to allow the Coast Guard. I mean, they'll give notice when a reasonable but at this an emergency situation that they have to go fix the light, it's too late and they're going to have to fix the light.
00;14;50;06 - 00;15;00;20
John Kelly
That's part and parcel of the expectation of the program. We communicate that to all potential bidders through public sale or through that. No cost conveyance that is clearly understood by all.
00;15;00;22 - 00;15;15;24
Rob Trubia
So, John, my understanding is there's three primary agencies when it comes to Lighthouse transfer. You've got the Coast Guard. We're talking to Matt about that. Then you've got the National Park Service and GSA. Can you tell us what is each one of their roles and particularly maybe expand a little bit on GSA?
00;15;15;26 - 00;15;41;26
John Kelly
Sure. Happily. So it's been a very successful partnership. We've enjoyed a significant level of cooperation, coordination and communication between all three agencies, which I think is a significant factor in the partnership's success and GSA perspective. You know, we basically act as a real estate broker, facilitate to transfer the lighthouse from the Coast Guard to the owner in that role will review the title and other real estate due diligence information provided by the Coast Guard, which could be fascinating.
00;15;41;28 - 00;16;06;16
John Kelly
Matt mentioned the Boston Harbor Light, I believe that Light was commissioned by George Washington or John Adams. I mean, these lighthouses go back to the beginning of country. So you're going back. You're looking through deeds and title documents that come from the king. It can be rather fascinating bringing that to the real estate. You'll find yourself going down, rabbit trails out to rabbit trails, looking at some of these up lighthouse title documents once to satisfy.
00;16;06;16 - 00;16;30;08
John Kelly
We have sufficient information and we can describe what were the asset and what are restrictions. Are there other consideration that need to take into account? By any loaner? We would announce the availability of allows by issuing a notice of availability. We would then organize site inspections for interested parties and put boots on the ground and take a look at the light and get a better understanding of what it is or could possibly be taking on.
00;16;30;11 - 00;16;55;15
John Kelly
We would develop sale terms of conditions and manage the competitive sale. If the Park Service does not make a selection for a no cost applicant. We also have the role of executing all the real estate conveyance documents. We signed deeds, we signed grant easements. We also cooperate with the National Park Service to to to address any noncompliance issues that may arise after a no cost conceyance.
00;16;55;18 - 00;17;24;28
John Kelly
So as we go down the Coast Guard, I think Matt did a great job illustrating their role, they determine which light house they no longer need to own to execute the aid to navigation mission. The National Park Service typically playing on their core expertise. They determine the application criteria for a no cost transfer. They provide the application to available entities, they review all applications, and if they approve an application, they formally request the GSA to convey the light to a selected entity.
00;17;25;01 - 00;17;34;12
John Kelly
They also a very important role of marketing the Lighthouse post conveyance to ensure compliance with the approved application. So it really is a partnership with each organization.
00;17;34;14 - 00;17;49;21
Rob Trubia
John Who decides if a lighthouse is not going to go for free to a nonprofit, an agency, or, you know, a local town if it's going to go to an individual who decides what it what it sells for, Does GSA put a price on that?
00;17;49;23 - 00;18;04;05
John Kelly
We would run it through an auction process. I think anyone who's involved with lighthouses, they're very difficult to find a comparable. Take Boston Harbor light. I'm not sure how you would even ask an appraiser to go out there and put a value. I'm sure they'd be happy to, you know, take your money and give you a value.
00;18;04;05 - 00;18;14;02
John Kelly
But at the end of the day, we look for the market to decide. We believe we've had robust bidding during the auction process, and we feel that that's probably the best indicator.
00;18;14;04 - 00;18;22;10
Rob Trubia
And is this a particularly active year for lighthouses? It seems like it might be.
00;18;22;13 - 00;18;46;14
John Kelly
It’s been a very active year. Perhaps our busiest to date, in large part due to the extensive media coverage this program has received locally, regionally, nationally and internationally. We’ve had calls from all over the world coming in. It just seems that it really demonstrates the broad level of interest that continues these historic landmarks. It always amazes me the amount of interest that people have in Lighthouse even folks from Canada may never see light.
00;18;46;18 - 00;19;10;03
John Kelly
They're like they still seem to have some attraction. Romantic nature of the lighthouse. So in May of this year, GSA issued notices for six historic lighthouses in five states. As I mentioned earlier, the notice informs the other about the opportunity to acquire the lighthouse at no cost, and the interested parties were able to 60 days from the date of that now were to expressed interest in acquiring a lighthouse.
00;19;10;05 - 00;19;40;21
John Kelly
Those lighthouse is included to Lynn Point Lighthouse in Old Saybrook area inlet to Fenwick Conneticut. The Nobska lighthouse, which is on Falmouth Road race in Woods Hole, Massachusetts. The Gurnett Lighthouse in Plymouth, Massachusetts. Warwick Neck light in scenic Warwick, Rhode Island and the Little Mark Island Monument Harpswell, Maine. And then dare I deviate from the New England theme here, we're going out to Erie Harbor, North Pier Lighthouse in Erie, Pennsylvania.
00;19;40;23 - 00;20;07;22
John Kelly
Those are all lighthouse is being made at be available at no cost as I mentioned earlier where the park service will add the primary role in deciding whether or not an applicant is suitable for a no cost transfer. They've all generated significant interest and the Park Service has provided applications but will be providing applications to a number of interested parties and over the next few months they will be reviewing those applications and if they approve an application, they will request GSA to transfer the property to that.
00;20;07;22 - 00;20;11;18
Rob Trubia
And there are a couple of lighthouses as well on Long Island Sound.
00;20;11;20 - 00;20;38;21
John Kelly
Yeah. We're currently offering the following lighthouses for sale by online auction that they've gone through the NOAA process with no applicants being selected by the interior. So we're offering the sale, the Penfield Reef Lighthouse in Sheffield, Connecticut, which is sound Stratford Shoal light and east set pocket New York are both within the Long Island Sound area. Now we're also rocking the Cleveland Harbor West Pier Headlight in Cleveland, Ohio.
00;20;38;24 - 00;20;47;09
John Kelly
And the Keweenaw Waterway Lower Entrance Light in Chaz Isle, Michigan. Those are all off for sale via online auction.
00;20;47;11 - 00;20;55;16
Rob Trubia
Well, Matt, why is it such an active year, do you know? I mean, is there is the Coast Guard going, hey, it's time to get rid of some of these?
00;20;55;18 - 00;21;18;00
Matt Stuck
Yeah, Rob, I, I the way that John was. Explain the process. It made me, you know, sort of include some of the realities of what we face. So even the lighthouses themselves based on their location, whether they're on water abutting water, they have large pieces of property or not, are often very desirable for agency partners to pick up very quickly because it dovetails very well with their missions.
00;21;18;00 - 00;21;47;01
Matt Stuck
National Park Service is a great example. A lot of state agencies that deal with with recreation, with that with preservation of the environment and the location of these properties. The idea that there is there's buildings, there's plumbing, there's electrical, there's there's things that that work effectively for them to be able to stage their teams to to execute their mission, even as the Coast Guard continues to to perform its navigation safety mission, I think makes a lot of them very desirable.
00;21;47;01 - 00;22;13;14
Matt Stuck
They could take and quickly they never to public auction. I think over time some of them that are maybe more remote or more challenging to reach, those are may often come up for sale because they don't dovetail sort of naturally with the mission of a local stakeholder partner. They don't benefit from a natural friends type group preservation type group.
00;22;13;16 - 00;22;36;02
Matt Stuck
A lot of our lighthouses, I mean, you know, out of the 200 some odd that are just in the first district up here in the extreme northeast, we have the majority of them on the National Register of Historic Places. There's 12 lighthouses that are actually national historic landmarks, including Boston Light, Montauk Point Light and some others just in our neck of the woods.
00;22;36;04 - 00;23;11;11
Matt Stuck
Well, those ones really do go a little more quickly because of their location or because they they, again, have natural connection to these other groups. And then as you go down that list, some of them are very difficult to access and that sort of becomes more challenging, I think. And that's when you get you sort of get down to that sale piece that, you know, and I'd like, you know, John, I don't know if I characterize that completely correctly, but but, you know, it seems just from kind of outside looking in as as we've been dealing with our properties for a while, that that that's kind of a natural outcome of all this.
00;23;11;14 - 00;23;27;06
John Kelly
I think you're absolutely right. I think some of the more desirable sites to land base flights, certainly that are more likely to go at no cost and through a public sale and some are offshore flights that are more challenging as far as access seasonally getting out to it tend to go, which was a sale.
00;23;27;12 - 00;23;41;06
Rob Trubia
So will all light houses eventually be no longer owned by the government? I mean, Matt, does the Coast Guard say, we're never letting that one go, We're never letting that one go, or eventually are there going to be going to GSA to be sold?
00;23;41;08 - 00;24;09;23
Matt Stuck
Yeah. So that's good. That's a good question, Rob. You know, again, a lot of it depends on the Coast Guard's organic use of the property itself. We have lighthouses that abut Coast Guard stations that abut moorings for Coast Guard cutters that might serve as government housing for Coast Guard families. So there are a lot of ways in which the Coast Guard need out for its people, for its other missions outside of just providing a signal to mariners causes to retain properties.
00;24;09;24 - 00;24;28;00
Matt Stuck
While we do net, definitely not something that we do lightly in any way, shape or form. In fact, if anything, we probably spend a lot more time sort of going back and forth and looking at the different arguments as to why we should keep or why we should we should recommended for divestiture through NHLPA, then then maybe we should all the time.
00;24;28;00 - 00;24;55;01
Matt Stuck
We do that because we we want to make sure we're getting an answer right there. I do think that that what is clear is that we can do to technology, produce and construct light structures, towers, ranges that are that are bright, they're capable, they're efficient, they're inexpensive, they're most definitely not nostalgic. They don't fit the mold and they're not nostalgic, right John?
00;24;55;04 - 00;25;21;12
Matt Stuck
They fit the mold. I think they fit the mold. They don't fit the mold of America's castles, right? I mean, you can really think of the modder of the lighthouse of the last couple centuries as and this is very much the way preservation groups view it as they should, because they're they're unique and they're precious, and they're some of the earliest signs of ingenuity by a very young country that was trying to move itself forward.
00;25;21;14 - 00;25;39;03
Matt Stuck
And so the nostalgia is real. The NAV safety importance is still real but when we build them now. We do so with the long view in mind, and we leverage pretty much every aspect of our civil engineering and marine engineering. Get our hands on.
00;25;39;06 - 00;25;54;03
Rob Trubia
John, What are what are some success stories that you've seen with with good sales, whether they've been to a preservation group or to an individual? Can you share any stories with us that it's just been it really worked out well and it's really exciting to see what's happened to the light house.
00;25;54;05 - 00;26;19;12
John Kelly
When we first one on the call, Matt was mentioning Gayhead, and I certainly think that was a tremendous example of how the Lighthouse bill was very helpful on Martha's Vineyard. It was conveyed to a local partnership between the town of a [inaudible] and a nonprofit preservation group. A real success story, The Lighthouse was situated, a long an erroding shoreline, and that threatened the long term stability of a tower that the town and its partners.
00;26;19;18 - 00;26;39;18
John Kelly
They embarked on a multi-year effort to acquire light and then ultimately fund its multimillion dollar relocation away from the cliffs. And as a result, it remains an active aid to navigation today, and there's a top tourist destination on the isle. And Matt, I know you were very much involved in that and we had a number of folks involved, but they had a it went on for years.
00;26;39;18 - 00;27;05;10
John Kelly
They had campaigns. Ad marathons are running any number of things. Bake sales generate funds for this. And it really became one of the most exciting things happening on Martha's Vineyard at the time that you just sense of how important the lighthouse is not only to the local community, but the island is swell, the tourist base. And I guess at the risk of appearing partial to New England lighthouses, which I am, I think the offshore New London Ledge light was also a success story.
00;27;05;13 - 00;27;30;06
John Kelly
A beautiful and distinct lighthouse. This square brick building with a mansard roof in a circle and some room not the typical conical tower of so many associated lighthouses. It's conveyed at no cost to the New London Maritime Museum, who actually worked with other nonprofit organizations to showcase that lighthouse and also taking advantage of its strategic location within a few miles of probably another half dozen lighthouses.
00;27;30;06 - 00;27;52;22
John Kelly
So they they work together with other groups, US split costs, and they offer interpretive tours on a regular basis to the public. And what schoolchildren you mentioned sails on from a sail perspective. Again, staying in New England, I think the Graves Lighthouse Perilous Light, located nine miles from Boston on the outermost island and Boston Harbor, stands by it 113 feet high.
00;27;52;22 - 00;28;16;05
John Kelly
Big granite block. It marks the entrance to the North Channel are the first thing mariners would see as they approached Boston Harbor. I mean, sold in 2013 via the online auction and the high bid exceeded $900,000, one of the highest amount paid for a lighthouse to date. It was bought by a local couple, which we love. The locals buy it who made substantial improvement, and they use it as a family getaway.
00;28;16;08 - 00;28;37;21
John Kelly
So certainly not online and research. That's fascinating. They've documented all the improvements they made it and back to Connecticut to find a lot of yes I would talk to my sale perspective was the Saber Break Water lighthouse sold the online auction in 2015. It's the lighthouse that is prominently featured on the Connecticut license plates. Every video through Connecticut you see a lighthouse lighthouse on the actual license plate.
00;28;37;23 - 00;28;44;01
John Kelly
It is a saber breakwater light about 48 feet in height, and it's over 135 years old.
00;28;44;04 - 00;28;55;26
Rob Trubia
What do you tell Jon? What do you tell people that are seriously at that point where they're about to make that final decision to write that check? Is there a buyer beware? What kind of advice do you have for potential owners?
00;28;55;28 - 00;29;22;26
John Kelly
Understand that you're taking on what many may see as a liability and is a romantic notion of lighthouses. But as Matt, as alluded to, the capital requirement to maintain these lighthouses in a safe manner. So we always caution them to bring out experts. We we encourage them when they come out for insight inspection, to bring architects, they bring professionals who could speak and understand what they possibly get themselves involved in.
00;29;22;28 - 00;29;30;02
Rob Trubia
When the lighthouse goes up for auction. How much time are we looking at from when you maybe put your first bid in to when you get the keys?
00;29;30;04 - 00;29;44;03
John Kelly
I would say probably about 120 days. You know, usually that is come out of the eBay auction. The bidding act is determined to stay closed day. So for a very popular light, it could go on for months, for less populated, it could close to 30 days.
00;29;44;06 - 00;30;05;15
Rob Trubia
Well, that's pretty quick. Quicker than I thought. Yeah. Yeah, that's it's really neat. It's a it's a really neat partnership, not just between the government agencies, but between the the towns, the different historic preservation societies, individuals. It sounds like everyone is getting together. Everyone believes they're beautiful, everyone thinks they're just captivating and they want to see them preserved.
00;30;05;18 - 00;30;20;09
Rob Trubia
That's right. So, you know, I mean, whether you're in the Coast Guard or just somebody that lives in that area or you're visiting, they're just they're really beautiful. I mean, you talked about 780 and in the country and we've had how many, John? 150 have been sold in 50.
00;30;20;09 - 00;30;29;17
John Kelly
And of those, the current NHLPA. Prior to the NHLPA there were there were other initiatives. The Maine lights program was maybe a dozen light. Matt correct me if I’m wrong.
00;30;29;20 - 00;30;30;08
Matt Stuck
Right about.
00;30;30;08 - 00;30;51;19
John Kelly
Yeah. Yeah. And I know prior to that lighthouses would come in port access like other other properties and again, not affording nonprofit standing And I really want to echo Matt’s point that nonprofit community with probably the largest driver I'm getting this bill that they were really forceful in getting to Congress and lobbying on on behalf of the nonprofits because they really had no standing.
00;30;51;23 - 00;31;22;21
John Kelly
And yet they were making all these investments and the heart was in the right place. But the end of the day, it's Coast Guard access to that property or the GSA. We would have no ability to reward or acknowledge all the work they'd done up until that point. So this bill really does create an equal playing field, unlike the traditional Property Act process that would afford a special standing to the feds or to a state or to a local community over a nonprofit nonprofit is going to compete equally with these entities, which is a real departure from the normal disposal process.
00;31;22;21 - 00;31;34;11
John Kelly
Again, running on a preservation goal of the bill, not about making money, not about dumping property, it's about finding the way position these properties for long term preservation.
00;31;34;14 - 00;31;46;23
Rob Trubia
It's neat. It's I think people just really care. They really care about these structures. They want to see them preserved. So John, before we close out, where do our listeners find lighthouses listed for sale by GSA?
00;31;46;25 - 00;32;02;18
John Kelly
It'd be remiss not to advertise our realestatesales.gov page, which at the interest of listeners are at, just seeking lighthouses or other properties GSA has for sale. I recommend they visit their website The listing of the four lighthouses I mentioned this as well as other properties GSA is currently offering.
00;32;02;21 - 00;32;05;05
Rob Trubia
What is that URL John?
00;32;05;07 - 00;32;09;01
John Kelly
realestatesales.gov
00;32;09;03 - 00;32;29;16
Rob Trubia
Thank you both. I really appreciate the great conversation. I really sense a some real passion for lighthouses from both of you. It's not just a job. It's really very much a mission, which I think is great. And it's just neat to see something that so many people get behind. Really. I've never met anybody that didn't think there were beautiful structures, that they weren't captivating, that they weren't fascinating.
00;32;29;18 - 00;32;53;11
Rob Trubia
And that brings us to the end of this conversation on GSA. Does That!? We hope you enjoyed our time with GSA's John Kelly and U.S. Coast Guard Representative Matthew Stuck. Throughout this episode, we've learned about the fascinating history and significance of lighthouses, how they're managed and preserved through the National Historic Lighthouse Preservation Act and the incredible opportunities available to those who dream of owning one of their very own.
00;32;53;13 - 00;33;18;13
Rob Trubia
From guiding sailors through treacherous waters to standing as symbols of resilience and hope, lighthouses hold a special place in the hearts of many. And if you enjoyed what you heard today, don't forget to check out our bonus episode, where we continue the conversation with lighthouse owner Sheila Consaul, the owner of Fairport Harbor West Lighthouse. Sheila shares her inspiring story and offers tips and advice for those of you who might be dreaming of owning a piece of America's nautical heritage.
00;33;18;16 - 00;33;41;12
Rob Trubia
Hey, if you enjoyed this episode, please be sure to subscribe to GSA Does That!?. And for more information, visit gsa.gov/podcast. Or to suggest the top of your host, send us an email at gsadoesthat@gsa.gov. I'm your host Rob Trubia. Our executive producer is the one and only Max Stempora GSA Does That!? is a production of the U.S. General Services Administration, Office of Strategic Communications.